Granted, there may be a considerable number of ships within easy reach for the Returning Armada ability to work. But whole fleets? Fleets of fleets? That just doesn't add up to me. Initially, you may get a few good clusters of ships ready to warp in. But after that, you may have scattered single ships, lost ships that have to be found, etc.

These ships aren't just sitting around in a massive warehouse waiting for you to grab them. They're on the run, performing their own tasks, and can't all be within easy logistical reach.

I think Returning Armada should be limited to a certain % of your total fleet capacity. Or, it could have diminishing returns as you approach fleet cap. That way, even if you have high fleet cap, you can not fill it up entirely on RA alone. You must get an economy to get the last ships needed to max your fleet. Running with anything less than a full fleet tends to be a bad idea in Sins, so it would provide a way to keep RA in check.

Maybe something like Returning Armada can only bring in 10-15% of your fleet cap? That would give you some ships to do raids with, while still requiring you to actually build a fleet on your own normally.

I'm playing an AI game and I'm maxxed out with 2300 ship points in what seems to be a stalemate. I have RA and it doesn't seem to be helping me to get above 2300 ship pts.

no offence but it takes 2-3 hard aggressor AIs to make a stalemate with a human... maybe

With vasari who have reached full RA you can set all AIs against it and still wouldn't be a problem. I haven't seen an AI to reach late tier yet.

RA is OP and it ruins the game PERIOD. It needs nerfing.

That's a strange comment. No one can skyrocket above their maximum fleet capacity. Why should Returning Armada be any different? In fact, why would you even consider that as being odd?

Besides that Vasari will reach max ship capacity at least twice as fast as the other races.

I, for one, think that phase stabs should cost 18-20 tactical supply (like superweapons), so that you can only have 1 per world at most - and even more loss of other tactical structures. Also, being unable to scuttle RA ships would be a very wise move.

Talking about limiting it to a % of fleet numbers is extremely slippery-slope. How about a nerf to pervasive economy to balance out this fact? I don't see anyone complaining about TEC's ability to print money since they happen to be the best race early game and almost-the-best late game, as well as the most popular.

If anything, buff Advent. They need it.



And if they do reach max ship capacity this "quickly" they will have no economy due to fleet upkeep and likely to have almost no military research done since Returning Armada is tier8.

But you know what.. if a Vasari player is rushing RA, chances are until it gets up and running they will probably have one of the smaller fleets in the game.

Just change the mechanic of the tech. Instead of giving the player free units over time, it should instead give a 10/25% chance of resurrecting a ship which just got destroyed in combat. This way the tooltip will also make more sense. Of course you have to lower the price of the tech then. The tech would still be powerful but not game breaking like it is now.

What if Diplomacy were turned on and a 5 normal AI were ganged up on me? I can defend my bottleneck but can't really move out of it.

What do I do if my enemies have about 4000 ship points worth of fleet in each of the two adjoining gravity wells?

Huh why should "resurrecting" destroyed ships make any sense considering the tool tip states that lost remnants are returning.

Well, lost can also mean destroyed.

As a main Vasari player, I honestly wouldn't mind if they took out RA all together. BUT, keep the phase stabalizers in. It's wonderful having a main super factory in the back of your system that can pump out ships extremely quick, and than they can jump to any planet needing help, it also allows you to keep all of your ships together instead of having a offense fleet, defensive, secondary,etc. because you can jump to anywhere needed.

Ok.

I'm officially tired of people crying about RA.

Returning Armada is the Vasari's means of longevity.

TEC is expert at producing vast, vast, quantities of ships, and sending them wave after wave against the enemy until the fight is won. No one can do meat-grinder like the TEC. And they don't need any fancy tier 8 upgrades to do it, either.

The Advent have amazing natural longevity when you use their support abilities in conjunction with one another. Couple that with individually very large fleets and the option for extra waves (although not on TEC's scale), and you have a long lasting force there.

The Vasari have smaller, potent fleets, with minimal longevity enhancing abilities. They also cannot sustain waves of attack like the TEC, or even the Advent - without Returning Armada!

Without RA, the Vasari would literally get steam-rolled end game - and maybe that's why you are all crying - because with RA it actually takes effort and planning to defeat them!

The simple fact is, that even with Returning Armada, the Vasari will still be highly outnumbered - even if they mass everything they've got into one mega-fleet! Have you ever heard of acceptable losses? You can feed in a large quantity of ships against a Vasari fleet - so many infact, that even if you ultimately lose the battle - the Vasari fleet will have now spent 10+ minutes busy in one place!

You gotta be willing to sacrifice a pawn from time to time to allow your knights to outflank the enemy and strike at their heart.

Use your numerical or survival advantages to tie down the smaller Vasari forces while you hit them hard at one or more other locations. Yes, they are powerful! Yes, they are mobile! But god damnit, they are CONCENTRATED LIKE A FART IN AN ELEVATOR!!!!!

Vasari are all about decisive battles. Deny them that option! If they come at you in a large mass, get the hell out of their way and attack their holdings! You very likely have the numbers to attack two or more worlds at once - do so! If the bulk of their fleet is busy chewing through a distraction force of yours, or whittling away at one random planet, consider a neccesary sacrifice and take them on in more than one location.

Also, if you really want to hurt a Vasari's capabilities, hit their extractors and refineries FIRST. Vasari that emphasize Trade Ports, even in 1.03, have their heads up their asses (unless it's an extremely small scale game, ie: 1v1, 1v2, 3xFFA). The simple fact is they can get more money faster by liquidating their resources to players or the black market. Hitting their resources directly - fubar's their Credit production on top of the obvious disadvantage it provides.

I sincerely believe the entire problem people have here, is that people are fond of enormous, space-opera worthy, decisive battles with massive numbers of ships nearly colliding with eachother going BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! every few seconds.

Now, I understand. It's fun. I enjoy it too. The simple fact, however, is that the Vasari are best at it. Not all sides of this game fight the same way. That's why it's beautiful. Use the strengths inherant to your race to win.

If you're Advent, use your longevity and your disabling abilities to essentially neutralize fleets for a long period of time while you disect them with laser beams at your leizure. Or use the time gained to strike at enemy holdings.

If you're TEC, swarm them, from all sides if you can. And then send in a second wave, and a third wave, and so on, and so forth. Use that economic and industrial might! TEC is a slumbering giant. We all know what happened last time that giant got woken up, am I right? Huh? HUH!?! Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

To everyone who is even now at this moment thinking of some snide reply: shut it.

Stop thinking tactically! Everyone with your build orders and LRM spam and little special groups of units... FFS... this is the wrong game for that. You know how that kind of play style is resolved? By making every single race the same with the same abilities so that everything has a hard counter just like friggin' Ro-Sham-Bo.

Just because you can play this game like that, does not mean that it is the best or even the proper, intended way, to play it. If you come up against road blocks, instead of screaming for changes - try thinking differently, and realizing that the games' scope is broader than you may have once thought.

This, is a strategy game, ladies and gentlemen! If you just take a step back, and look at the bigger picture, you will see that your larger movements are what dictate the flow of this game. SoaSE is not a 4-piece rock band. SoaSE is a 144 man orchestra playing scores that are measured by movements, not bridges and choruses!

Embrace the game as it is, instead of trying to turn it into what you all claim to not want any more - just another RTS clone. This game is give and take, exultant joy and despairing sorrow. You will lose worlds, you will lose crewmen by the hundreds of thousands. You will bleed, and you will shed blood. That is the nature of SoaSE. Not some fast paced game where you wtfpwn someone in a matter of 20 minutes or less based entirely on how well you micromanage your military.

Anyway, there's my long supressed rant. I won't be checking this thread again, and I will not respond to any replies that are based upon this post.

Have a good day, and good luck to you and your empires.

Congratulations on a fine and uniquely perspected game, Ironclad and Stardock.

I think Itharus is half-right.

I think he's right that it is important to keep RA balanced with tec trade ports.

But I also think that it's lame that once a vasari player gets to RA it takes 2-3 players to hold the vasari player off. There's no reason a vasari player can't split his (free) forces to both attack and defend in multiple locations at once if you try attack his economy.

All we can give are opinions, eh? Mine is that Itharus is wrong

i agree with itharus. the people who complain about RA are just to lazy to find other ways to win besides massing one huge fleet and attacking their opponent planet by planet. that may work in starcraft, but not in this larger-scaled strategy game. RA is balanced, because rushing to get it requires huge amounts of resources, and research time. the opponents need to attack if they notice the Vasari player's fleet is small. if any tech should be reduced at all, it is TEC's economic powers, because they allow them to uphold economic research and fleet growth at the same time.
please stop whining about this great game stardock and ironclad put together just because it is different and better than other games.

Damn dude, I read all of that and all I can think of are two things:

1) you are very fat

2) you should have spent the time it took to write that out reading the thread

To Itharus:

I'm cooler, smarter and richer than you. And it doesn't matter what you say or do because I'm always right and you're always wrong. That's it. End of discussion. You don't matter. Let's power up LHC and end this. I won.

I mean, come on. Is that really the way to argue? If you have nothing else to show for yourself than ignorance and arrogance, then don't even bother. Actually, I might had been able to accept arrogance, if your argument(s) had any kind of substance or validity. Every ill-concieved (and sometimes ludicrous) point you make have already been made by another second degree whiner (people that whine about whining - or worse, perceived whining). If you had bothered with reading the thread, you would have noticed that this isn't the first time I've been lured into making this sort of a reply. Yes, that means I'm a third degree whiner, and yes, I'm embarrassed. What's worse, I'm even contemplating PM'ing this to you... But at least I acknowledge it when I'm a hypocrite.

I genuinely think it's sad that threads composed mainly of forumers giving constructive and realistic criticisism or suggestions, must be plagued by others deriding them for daring to inplicitly indicate that Sins isn't complete and total gaming nirvana. Must we all be so damn "patriotic"? Do I have to sing Sins' praises at the end of every single thing I post?

Now, that's the end of my very briefly suppressed rant. I will check this thread again, but primarily in the hope that we can constructively discuss the subject at hand. So if you feel like it, make it short and just call me a jackass. I promise to take it into account. I might even possibly agree with you.

Congratulations on a fine and uniquely perspected game, Ironclad and Stardock. It is different and better than all other games.

Uh-oh, did you hear that? It's OFFICIAL! Itharus is officially tired of people crying about RA, as opposed to what I can only assume was unofficially before.

Itharus, did you even bother reading the thread? People aren't simply complaining about RA because they lost to it; they're complaining, giving suggestions, and identifying what's broken about it.

In your extremely long winded post, you ramble on without ever touching on the key points of imbalance on RA. The fact is, a teched vasari player with a slew of phase games has:

1 - instant transportation - you can't backdoor him because he can warp his fleet anywhere. You'll never do significant damage as he chases you down.

2 - a bigger army than you. I don't think I need to explain this. Because he has a bigger army than you, if you divide your army and attack two fronts, guess what? He can ALSO divide his army and defend two fronts, each with a superior fleet.

3 - much faster rebuild time. After he's cleaned out your army and you've taken out a huge chunk of his, he can immediately call in his fleet and be at max fleet cap again.

4 - much stronger economy. His economy, once he was RA,is solely dedicated to research, planet upgrades, and structures. Not only that, he can scuttle the free vessels and get even more money. Scuttling is also not reduced by fleet maintenance costs. On the other hand, a non RA player has to build a fleet in addition to everything else and they don't have instant money sources.

Finally, regarding your supposed counter to an RA player's rush, no experienced player will use 100% of his fleet if it looks like you might have some ships somewhere else. It's always wise to keep a few behind in case their opponent attempts a siege frigate rush or some back door strategy.

None of your suggestions address address any of the above points and they're not even strategically sound. The way to counter RA is not and should not ever be "preventing them from getting it." If it is, there's a huge serious freaking imbalance. Do you "officially" understand now?

Sins have a series of minor unit-related balance issues that mainly are noticable in highly competitive games on a relatively small maps. 1.04 seems to be doing a adequately job rebalancing these. Then, we have the major balance issues of TEC trade (or rather the Black Market) and Returning Armada. In 1.03, there's no doubt about the fact that TEC trade is the dominant imbalance and have somewhat neutralized the effect of Returning Armada. The huge gain in popularity TEC received after 1.03 was released, primarily at the cost of the Vasari, is all the evidence you need. TEC trade needs to be fixed in 1.04, and it seems like several steps will be taken to do so. Steps, that inherently also benefits the Vasari (higher BM prices). Meanwhile, it seems like no steps will be taken to alter Returning Armada. In effect, I'm willing to wager that what we'll be left with in 1.04 is a situation reminiscent of 1.02, in which the Vasari, and Returning Armada, regains its prominence. And as an aftershock of that, prepare to face much larger amounts of real unconstructive whining about Returning Armada.