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LRM, the Siege Frigate of 1.02+?

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LRM, the Siege Frigate of 1.02+?

from Sins Forums
Well, I just encountered a lovely new strategy today, or rather, a lovely old one in a hyper aggressive form. The LRM blob!

Not only did I play a game where I spent two hours fighting nothing -but- LRMS, imagine my consternation when I found out that the players weren't even using upgraded LRMs. All they did was ignore my fleet composed of half assailants and flaks and wail on my buildings until I couldn't tech up anymore. What kind of nonsense is that? It's siege frigates all over again, only this time you'll lose your orbital structures instead of your home planets.

I thought perhaps that hangers might be a solution, but hangers cost more than 3 LRMs and they're static structures that are vulnerable specifically too LRM's Anti building prowess.

Anyway, here's hoping 1.03 comes soon and fixes this whole mess.


strategy
23,926 views 58 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
We need either:1) a more effective counter to LRM's (since flak dont have the firing arcs to appropriately deal with them).
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If only there were some kind of damage that did
200% damage versus LRMs (Light Armor)... some kind of, I don't know, fighter unit, maybe...
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
Well, cosidering how badly balanced it is now, and that it took me just a couple hours to make things about ten times better, like I said I won't hold my breath. It's just annoying to see so many things that defy basic common sense and also standards in pretty much every space game I've played. Thankfully the game is easy to mod, or I would not bother with it.
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Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
Misterunderhill, tell me more about your changes and how you've changed things for the betterment of all players. Yes, do go on and inform me of the obvious mistakes that Ironclad has made, and how you have fixed these.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
hmm what if we just make LRMs have very light armor? then flaks would be useful against something other than fighters
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
Where are people getting the idea that flaks are the counter to LRMs? Flak counters fighters, fighters counter LRMs.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
Either way, I still think LRMs armor is too thick... perhaps an HP nerf would be in scope. As it stands now, too much durability on a ship with so much firepower and range.
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
No I'm pretty sure LRMs pop like paper once you stop trying to counter them with flask frigates.

edit: best typo
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
We need either:1) a more effective counter to LRM's (since flak dont have the firing arcs to appropriately deal with them).If only there were some kind of damage that did 200% damage versus LRMs (Light Armor)... some kind of, I don't know, fighter unit, maybe...
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Agreed. I've found that deploying light carriers backed up a handful of flaks can put down some serious hurt on LRMs. Of course, CVLs take a bit longer to get if you're TEC, but if you find yourself on the defensive use hangar defenses until you get CVLs. If you're Advent, you can get CVLs about the same time as TEC. Also, if you're Advent and they're using LRMs against your capitals mostly, the damage retaliation buff that one of the Advent caps get can be useful as well.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
Until you get a hold of carriers (which are significantly more expensive than LRM's and will be rendered useless if the LRM-owner brings Flaks of his own), Flak frigates deal more damage than standard light frigates to LRM's and take a 'lot' less damage in the process.

Flaks aren't a terribly effective counter but for the cost and early game availability, they're pretty much all you've got short of spamming your own LRM's and going for attrition.
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
The simplest changes are usally the best. The complaint I've heard the most is that sure, flak/fighters kill LRMs, but the LRMs just hit and run, taking our a cap ship even or more before they run again. There is no time to get the counter to them. What if they simply droped the turn rate of LRMs greatly; that's all? They can still hit, but they could not "run" seconds later. And then you could also circle them with Flak if you wanted to micro a bit.

Regaurdless, except for one "post", it's great to see most people that have this game can discuss it's possible improvement so maturely, and without flames or name-calling. :)


Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
Where are people getting the idea that flaks are the counter to LRMs? Flak counters fighters, fighters counter LRMs.
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http://www.crimsonsky.com/images/Sins-Ship-Damage-Chart.jpg

Flaks do anti-very-light damage, which does 100% damage to light armor, which is what LRMs use. Of course, anti-medium also does 100% damage to light armor, but flak frigates have heavy armor, which only receives 75% damage from anti-medium attacks. Further, flaks have lots of armor and shields compared to LRMs. Thus, flaks, while not a hard counter to LRMs, are very hard for LRMs to kill efficiently. Flaks provide reliable continuous damage against LRMs, and can also screen your own LRMs from the other natural counter, fighter strikecraft. If heavy cruisers came earlier tech-wise, it would be easier to build a composite fleet. However, as it stands, heavy cruisers come so much later that you're better off just spamming LRMs and flaks.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
Thus, flaks, while not a hard counter to LRMs
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See, this is the point I'm making. People are complaining that flaks aren't chopping up armies of LRMs like a hot knife through butter, and that's because they're not supposed to.
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
I came up against this last night, carriers took care of it pretty well. The problem is that you have to tech up one level beyond LRM to get the carrier, but once you do, because of their mobility, the carriers can destroy a disproportionate number of LRM frigates.

This is especially true if they don't go after the carriers themselves. I also had the sova carrier as my capital ship, so that added another 5 fighters to my fleet as well.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
People are complaining because there's no effective hardcounter to LRM's (specifically, in a rush situation) that shows up as early on the tech tree as they do. I agree that flaks would be an odd choice for this job but the underlying concern is that they're the only thing available that early (short of your own LRM spam) capable of 'kinda' doing the job.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
It's only one more military lab. The thing is, I don't see people getting some flak to hold off LRMs and then moving up to carriers. They're getting flak and staying with flak, and then wonder why it's not working.
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
We need either:1) a more effective counter to LRM's (since flak dont have the firing arcs to appropriately deal with them).If only there were some kind of damage that did 200% damage versus LRMs (Light Armor)... some kind of, I don't know, fighter unit, maybe...
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Instead of spouting theoretical nonsense based on "oh, well it SHOULD work!" like 99% of the other "LRM White Knights" (still waiting on someone to back up the whole "use scouts!!!!1" thing), I challenge you to post a replay where:

1. Someone beats a LRM fleet of size X with X amount of carriers
2. Someone beats a LRM fleet of size X with X/2 amount of carriers and X/2 amount of flak.

"Beat" is defined by having at least 1/4th of their fleet intact - otherwise the victory is pyrrhic.
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
Until you get a hold of carriers (which are significantly more expensive than LRM's and will be rendered useless if the LRM-owner brings Flaks of his own),
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Then you counter his flaks, either by bringing some anti-flak ships or have more carriers to outweigh the flaks. Every flak he brings is one less LRM, so you by default have partially accomplished your purpose. You're talking like you've got a static situation that cannot be countered.

Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
Until you get a hold of carriers (which are significantly more expensive than LRM's and will be rendered useless if the LRM-owner brings Flaks of his own),Then you counter his flaks, either by bringing some anti-flak ships or have more carriers to outweigh the flaks. Every flak he brings is one less LRM, so you by default have partially accomplished your purpose. You're talking like you've got a static situation that cannot be countered.
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Cobalts, the natural counter and the only thing you'd think that would take out a bunch of flaks quickly, would get torn up (150% damage) by said LRMs as soon as it got in range, or if the opposing player wasn't stupid and actually moved his fleet.

Kodiaks and caps get tore up for obvious reasons as well. Anti-medium is not a very fun damage type for those going against it.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
I'm pretty sure you were the clan guy that kept dropping in our 3v7 game today. that ended up building a 40+ LRM fleet (along with your friend) and beating down two of my teammates with it. Obviously someone has more of a vested interest in LRMs being imbalanced than the OP.
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Right, and i wasn't using any lrms and fighting two people at once. (PrinceOfTheUniverse).

We scout use what beats out enemies. That's how you're supposed to play.
If enemy had a lot of structures and light frigs in 1.02, then lrms where the right choice.

Your ally r2tincan i scouted and saw making a ton of lrms. So I made flaks. I crushed him with them, so why not check that reply if you think nothing counters them? :D

But it seems in 1.03 the flaks don't work too well against lrm, but most other stuff does.
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
If enemy had a lot of structures and light frigs in 1.02, then lrms where the right choice.
End of quote

Wrong, if the enemy has anything in space, lrms are the right choice.
LRM are even decent against their hard counters.

The most cost efficient carriers (Advent's) cost 2.15 time the cost of a Javelis.
For the same fleet cost, the Javelis fleet will have 136% the total health and 74% the total effective dps compared to the Carrier fleet.
136% * 74% = 100%.
Thus Javelis are just as effective at killing carriers than carriers with all fighters are effective at killing Javelis.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
Right. LRMS where too good because not only could they wipe light frigs, and did decent against carriers(unless you had a lot to kill in 1 pass) ut they'd do a lot of damage to buildings also.

Flaks while they counter lrms, aren't much good at other htings.

But LRMS suck now so be happy.
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
If enemy had a lot of structures and light frigs in 1.02, then lrms where the right choice.Wrong, if the enemy has anything in space, lrms are the right choice.LRM are even decent against their hard counters.The most cost efficient carriers (Advent's) cost 2.15 time the cost of a Javelis.For the same fleet cost, the Javelis fleet will have 136% the total health and 74% the total effective dps compared to the Carrier fleet.136% * 74% = 100%.Thus Javelis are just as effective at killing carriers than carriers with all fighters are effective at killing Javelis.
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closer to 1.829 after the patch, and you are also assuming the carrier player never moves his carriers at all and just stays put and the fight starts with the lrms on the javelins. even sending the carriers through the javelins to make them turn all the time reduces the javelin dps by a significant amount.
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
But LRMS suck now
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Yes they do!
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
You cant kill planets with LRM.
There, solved.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
If enemy had a lot of structures and light frigs in 1.02, then lrms where the right choice.Wrong, if the enemy has anything in space, lrms are the right choice.LRM are even decent against their hard counters.The most cost efficient carriers (Advent's) cost 2.15 time the cost of a Javelis.For the same fleet cost, the Javelis fleet will have 136% the total health and 74% the total effective dps compared to the Carrier fleet.136% * 74% = 100%.Thus Javelis are just as effective at killing carriers than carriers with all fighters are effective at killing Javelis.closer to 1.829 after the patch, and you are also assuming the carrier player never moves his carriers at all and just stays put and the fight starts with the lrms on the javelins. even sending the carriers through the javelins to make them turn all the time reduces the javelin dps by a significant amount.
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Carriers move slow, accelerate slow, and move slow. LRM's aren't agile either, but they're better than carriers.

Too much theory crafting on your parts. I've played the actual games to know.