Thinking42Man Thinking42Man

My responses to Frogboy's comments on balance and intentions.

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My responses to Frogboy's comments on balance and intentions.

Concerning the indicators of good/bad balance and which audience the game should primarily cater to.

from Sins Forums
4) Overall, we believe that Sins of a Solar Empire is a pretty well balanced game out of the box. The fact that people are quibbling over whether "LRMs" should have 15% less range or whether a given unit should use 5 supply versus 6 supply I think speaks to this.
5) Lastly, Stardock nor Ironclad are going to make changes to the game that are to the detriment of the single player game experience.  Why were siege frigates nerfed? Because it was a "quick fix" to help improve single player which is where most people play the game most of the time. Similarly, you will see updates that you may not agree with if you're a multiplayer user but helps single player. Similarly, some single player users may disagree with a change that improves multiplayer (this is particularly true about the market for instance).  A little empathy can go a long way.  But remember, we are making a game that is designed to be enjoyed in two very different environments.
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4) Well you're half right, but when a majority of balance complaints revolve around one unit type or one faction, it certainly is an indicator that the balance is significantly off and that the game hasn't reached the stage where finesse tweaks are the first order of business.

5) A game that is balanced for competitive play will be balanced for casual play. A game that is balanced vs. Human opponents will be balanced vs. AI opponents, because it will be decades before AI can play at the same level as a living breathing player. This isn't chess, and I know that IC has wisely not spent as much time on the AI as others have programming AI for such games as chess, which it should be noted is far far less complex and zounds more linear than a game such as SoSE.

129,418 views 118 replies
Reply #101 from Sins Forums Top
this game was trumpeted to be 4X and it's no X, it's just another RTS with the same 3 vaugely differing factions, and "frigates" and "capitol ships" instead of infantry and tanks. Thanks, but I've already got Dawn of War, and it does it better.
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Bingo. This is what I've been saying. This game was never designed with huge scale empire building. It was only marketed as a 4x game but it's definately not one. Sorceresss, if you agree with Habadacus, then you're agreeing that it's an RTS and essentially saying this game isn't for you. I seem to recall you posting earlier that this game isn't an RTS... have you changed your mind?

Reply #102 from Stardock Forums Top
Sorceresss, if you agree with Habadacus, then you're agreeing that it's an RTS and essentially saying this game isn't for you. I seem to recall you posting earlier that this game isn't an RTS... have you changed your mind?
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... you are very observant, JINX ...

I don't recall, but I might have wanted to say that the game was also designed as a 4X Space Empire Builder ...

but, after recently playing more games, I am starting to see SINS more as an RTS than a 4X ...

and then, you would be right : combat-intensive RTS games (such as the upcoming StarCrack 2) are not for me ...

I'm also currently playing the beta of Galactic Civilizations 2 Twilight of the Arnor expansion, and Lost Empire Immortals :

those TBS games are authentic 4X Space Empire Building games.

I feel more in my element in those two TBS games than in the ambiguous SINS +/- RTS game.

You're « spot on », JINX !  ;) 





Siege of Centauri
Reply #103 from Sins Forums Top
The game attempts to bridge 4x and RTS. I was actually very interested in the attempt. The game is a so-so for me. Some of it is really cool, but it is actually a better RTS than 4x. That being said though, the market for the game is still primarily SP and not MP, so don't get your hopes up.

The one thing that most MP folks forget is the fact that as soon as one starts talking something other than "solo", whether it be group quests, raids or PvP in an MMO or MP, whether "competitive" or comp stomps, the number of people in that particular market for the IP drops significantly. It can be a rude awakening. Games that don't understand and plan for that dynamic tend to "fail", at least on the PC. Console numbers are not quite that absolute, but even there you would be surprised what the numbers tell folks. An excellent example is the D&D MMO that came out not so long ago. It was primarily geared as group quests only. You would figure D&D = parties, but darned if the lack of "solo" stuff didn't bite them right in the tail.
Reply #104 from Sins Forums Top
Sorceresss, if you agree with Habadacus, then you're agreeing that it's an RTS and essentially saying this game isn't for you. I seem to recall you posting earlier that this game isn't an RTS... have you changed your mind? ... you are very observant, JINX ... I don't recall, but I might have wanted to say that the game was also designed as a 4X Space Empire Builder ...but, after recently playing more games, I am starting to see SINS more as an RTS than a 4X ... and then, you would be right : combat-intensive RTS games (such as the upcoming StarCrack 2) are not for me ...I'm also currently playing the beta of Galactic Civilizations 2 Twilight of the Arnor expansion, and Lost Empire Immortals : those TBS games are authentic 4X Space Empire Building games. I feel more in my element in those two TBS games than in the ambiguous SINS +/- RTS game.You're « spot on », JINX !   
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Would you know if they have plans for something like a "real-time" mode with that? Where I don't have to keep hitting the turn button, but instead I can hit an easy "stop" button or something? Just curious and I can understand if you are prohibitted from answering do to an NDA.
Reply #105 from Sins Forums Top
I think people are just mad because their Javelis LRM Frigate spam isn't working as well as it did before the patch.

The game is perfect!
Reply #106 from Sins Forums Top
Would you know if they have plans for something like a "real-time" mode with that? Where I don't have to keep hitting the turn button, but instead I can hit an easy "stop" button or something? Just curious and I can understand if you are prohibitted from answering do to an NDA.
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This is what I had originally picture sins to be. Basically Moo/GalCiv without a turn button. I do like RTS games anyways, so I'm still having fun with it but it would have been nice to really get a true 4x game with real time dynamics.
Reply #107 from Stardock Forums Top
This is what I had originally picture sins to be. Basically Moo/GalCiv without a turn button. I do like RTS games anyways, so I'm still having fun with it but it would have been nice to really get a true 4x game with real time dynamics.
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My sentiment, exactly.

Reply #108 from Sins Forums Top
This is what I had originally picture sins to be. Basically Moo/GalCiv without a turn button. I do like RTS games anyways, so I'm still having fun with it but it would have been nice to really get a true 4x game with real time dynamics. My sentiment, exactly.
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I only pay Real-Time-Strategy games. Turn base are fun, but aren't fast enough.

Reply #109 from Sins Forums Top
I think people are just mad because their Javelis LRM Frigate spam isn't working as well as it did before the patch.
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Oh no, please don't spread that. LRM spam is still just as effective in small maps as it was before. The price hike has only hurt advent.

If you're talking about large maps, LRM spam was never very effective.

Edit: Kruelgor and [MAGOG]Kruelgor... you guys aren't the same people are you?
Reply #110 from Sins Forums Top
I think people are just mad because their Javelis LRM Frigate spam isn't working as well as it did before the patch.Oh no, please don't spread that. LRM spam is still just as effective in small maps as it was before. The price hike has only hurt advent.If you're talking about large maps, LRM spam was never very effective.Edit: Kruelgor and [MAGOG]Kruelgor... you guys aren't the same people are you?
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Did you compare the LRM attributes before and after the patch? The LRM is nowhere near the ship it was before.

I think they did a good job on making the LRM less effective. Slashed its armor in half, increased its credit and resource cost, took away the antimatter, and might have reduced its shield too.

Reply #111 from Sins Forums Top
I think people are just mad because their Javelis LRM Frigate spam isn't working as well as it did before the patch.The game is perfect!
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I guess I must be playing a different game. My LRM spam works as well as ever, and TEC Jav spam is even more effective thanks to the new black market change.
Reply #112 from Sins Forums Top
I guess I must be playing a different game. My LRM spam works as well as ever, and TEC Jav spam is even more effective thanks to the new black market change.
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Exactly. I don't remember the exact numbers for hull/shield/armor/etc for the LRM. Regardless, my LRM's are most certainly not loosing to light frigs! Furthermore, their main asset, their incredible damage, is unchanged that much I know.
Reply #113 from Sins Forums Top
That's the beauty of it: In a balanced game, everybody is happy.
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Of course they are trying to get the game as perfectly balanced as possible. Frogboy is just saying that there is a limit to the time and energy that they can spend on play balancing when there are other parts of the game that need work.

The other major problem is that a lot of posters are just bitching and whining about play balance when they lose. A lot of perceived imbalances are just people getting beat by better players. People need to be patient, it is going to take a long time for Sins to reach an optimal balance.

In the mean time, constructive criticism and posting will greatly help expedite the process.

So remember people, just because you lost doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. Be constructive, whining helps no one. Be patient, they are going to be supporting this game for a long time. As long as they don't burn out from everyone bitching. Show some appreciation and respect. They have worked hard on this game and it's pretty damn good.
Reply #114 from Sins Forums Top
Of course they are trying to get the game as perfectly balanced as possible. Frogboy is just saying that there is a limit to the time and energy that they can spend on play balancing when there are other parts of the game that need work.

The other major problem is that a lot of posters are just bitching and whining about play balance when they lose. A lot of perceived imbalances are just people getting beat by better players. People need to be patient, it is going to take a long time for Sins to reach an optimal balance.

In the mean time, constructive criticism and posting will greatly help expedite the process.

So remember people, just because you lost doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. Be constructive, whining helps no one. Be patient, they are going to be supporting this game for a long time. As long as they don't burn out from everyone bitching. Show some appreciation and respect. They have worked hard on this game and it's pretty damn good.
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What he said^
Reply #115 from Sins Forums Top
This is what I had originally picture sins to be. Basically Moo/GalCiv without a turn button. I do like RTS games anyways, so I'm still having fun with it but it would have been nice to really get a true 4x game with real time dynamics.
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If you want the game to be more 4x then there's an easy way to achieve that. Make well thought out suggestions on the forum. Make sure to be detailed and support your suggestions with evidence. The devs are listening.

Be aware that what seems like a great idea to you might really suck for other players.
Reply #116 from Stardock Forums Top
People need to be patient, it is going to take a long time for Sins to reach an optimal balance.[...] Be patient, they are going to be supporting this game for a long time.
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Sales numbers for the first 6 weeks since release (including, also, the 2007 pre-order sales) encourage us to remain optimistic, in that respect.

As long as they don't burn out from everyone bitching.
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You underestimate the forum experience & resilience of Stardock CEO "Frogboy".  ;p 

I really don't believe that any of the petty « bitching », on this forum, succeeds in affecting his morale & strategic stamina in the least.

Reply #117 from Sins Forums Top
I think they're doing a good job with the game. Sure, some stuff is definitely not balanced in 1.03, but most of the changes they've made have been good ones, and the game's a lot of fun to play.
Reply #118 from Sins Forums Top
You underestimate the forum experience & resilience of Stardock CEO "Frogboy".

I really don't believe that any of the petty « bitching », on this forum, succeeds in affecting his morale & strategic stamina in the least.
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Money talks and this game is apparently a (I'm making a note here) huge success. Stardock's business strategy has always been to establish close contact with the community. The Fraser brothers have been in the industry long enough to know that dissent in the forums != people hating their game. When people complain in the forums, even if it's constructive, it's often skewed into the worst possible light.