Your exact words in an earlier post:

Fighters are ONLY better against LRM's and bombers. Besides killing LRM's, you use bombers.

You Post:
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/304141/

Make up your mind please. I do see your point, with the same armor type it would make sense for the correct statement to be that Fighters are only better against light armor'd targets. Was the previous post an error?

I've done some more testing that surprised me regarding LRM's VS C.Carriers.

First I'm trying to find a conversion factor that works across all units as far as cost effect in battle.

I'm assuming the Metal is worth 150 credits per 100 and crystal is worth 175 per 100.

So A dicipline is 310. (250cr + 40 Metal = 310)

A vasari Assailant = (400cr + 65 Metal (97.5) + 45 Crystal (78.75) = 576.25
A Advent C.Carrier = (450cr + 100metal + 50 crystal) = 687.5

10 Vasari Assailants = 5762.5
8 Advent Carriers = 5500

Played this match with carriers holding fighters. Carrier came out with 4 left, assailants were wiped out. The advent ships had to be move constantly though so a considerable amount of micro involved but it appears that you can effectively counter and LRM rush with a lot of carriers. But you have to micro them very carefully.

Did the same test using bombers to see how that would work and that test ended with 2 carriers left.

Also did a test where advent Weapon only cap ship and vasari only cap ship fought it out with 8 carriers on my side and 10 assailants on this side. I had bombers on my carriers to begin with and attacked his cap ship first. Both our cap ships went down at exactly the same time which was surprising. I figure my ship with bombers would take out his cap ship faster than he did with his LRM's. I eventually won the battle with about 6 carriers left.

This is a bit of a surprise to me. For advent you can buy carriers before you can buy LRM's which requires less money spent on building research stuff as well. So if someone is moving in with lots of LRM's that seems to be the counter. I'm not sure I'd use hangars yet, in a close game those points might end up being wasted if the enemy blows the thing asap.

If the enemy as careful he could research flak and counter your points spent on fighters/bombers very easily.

I still think fighters/bombers are underpowered but at least there is 1 use for them....

I played a long awesome game that ended with a massive battle involving LRM, Light frigates, and Hvy Cruisers, some flak, and a few cap ships and I had made it a point to build a fleet of carriers (with bombers) and focus'd the on the hvy cruisers. They got a few kills but if I could go back and do it again it's just easier, safer, and more versatile to use hvy cruisers. Bombers do get kills on hvy cruisers but not fast enough.

I'd really like to see bombers and fighters get a damage boost because for the amount of work you have to put into using them the results are barely on par with using other simpler units that you just charge into.

If all the ships/structures using strikecraft could deplay double the number of ships I think these weapons would be extremely valuable and probably match up really well against flak. If someone jumped into a battle with no strikecraft and the enemy had some that would be a big advantage. (assuming they were on opposite sides. I think this is fair considering that if a fleet with lsot of strike craft jumps into a trap and is attacked immediately they would be at a huge disadvantage.

Right now, assuming you use them properly and only jump them in when they are going to be safe, you might get an even fight depending on the enemy in a best case scenario.

Well in the case of scouts and siege frigs since they have such low hull/shields it's best to keep bombers out since their 9ish DPS is good enough against them.

Technically, yesh, fighters do double the damage against them. But double damage isn't needed to kill scouts.

It would be nice if fighters countered light frigates as well, or at least did more damage to them. I'm not sure what this would do to game balance but I think everyone expects this. Fighters are for light targets, bombers are for hvy targets.

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/304141/page/1

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/304141/page/1

I read that, I like your suggestions but I don't think they make strikecraft a fair balance vs other units. Adding more squadrons to carriers and nerfing flak frigates would be my recommendation.

Someone posted a build order for each race across several different strats, Rush, Economy, normal start, etc. and with each build order he went with LRM's and flak everytime. No carriers, no hangars, no strikecraft of any kind.

I'd like to see these units become more useful. And I think flak needs to be toned down for this to happen. It's supposed to be a specialized unit but it's performance in combat is close to the light frigate. It can hold it's own vs a lot of other forces and still counter strikecraft. I think it's ok with how much damage it does, it's just way too strong. I think lRM's and light frigates should counter it so that it would be important to keep your flak frigates in reserve or protected. Currently you just run them into the middle of battle and let them soak up fire.

So you want to see them become more useful by overpowering them so they're the only option and it's only fighters, bombers, and caps with antifighter/bomber abilities that are used?..

So you want to see them become more useful by overpowering them so they're the only option and it's only fighters, bombers, and caps with antifighter/bomber abilities that are used?..

I don't see how strikecraft will become overpowered by making flak frigates weak enough that they won't be a frontline fighting force... Strikecraft vs flak will still end up with strikecraft losing, but flak vs LRM/Light Frigates should be the opposite. If the enemy goes heavy flak and LRM and I take light frigates and LRM I should have the advantage and I'm not sure there is much advantage there. The Flaks soak up so much damage that it makes them a VERY effective frigate unit in all types of combat. They suck at hurting cap ships but I don't think that is a big deal considering their purpose.

If you consider how much micro it takes to field strikecraft effectively and how vulnerable it makes in almost every respect how can you argue that we are even approaching strikecraft being overpowered?

To summarize what I'd like to see right now is:
Carriers get +2 squadrons from the start.
Flak gets -25% or -50% in shields and armor.

After testing the cruiser carriers they do not seem to be that far off from where they need to be. Carrier cap ships however need some work. If we leave flak frigates as is then I think we're going to have to buff strikecraft in a big way which is probably going to unbalance something else.

If you can go into specifics about why nerfing flak frigates is a bad idea, or adding more squadrons to carriers is a bad idea I'd appreciate it. I think flak are way overpowered atm, and we can either overpower the ships they counter or we can bring flak into line with it's specialized role. If you consider the other rspecialized ships, LRM's, Cruiser Carriers, support cruisers, they all have fairly severe counters and if the enemy puts those to wrok against you your forces are going to suffer big time. Flak frigates seem to never die. They appear to be the toughest ships to kill when I'm taking a planet from pirates (except hvy cruisers), and in mass numbers your enemy will spend a ton of resources getting rid of them.

Heh, and look at this chart:

http://www.emmeland.com/sinsships.html

Take a loot at each sides flak frigate:

Advent:
Disciple Vessel Hull:400, Armor:2, Shield:425 (Light Frig)
Defense Vessel Hull:650, Armor:3, Shield:620 (flak)

TEC
Cobalt Light Frigate Hull:600, Armor:2, Shield:350
Garda Flak Frigate Hull: 900, Armor:4, Shield 450

Vasari:
Revastra Skirmisher Hull:700, Armor:3, Shield:440 (Light Frig)
Junsurak Sentinel Hull:875, Armor:3, Shield 550 (flak)

They're little tanks. If these weapons were only able to hit strikecraft this might be a non issue but with a large advantage in shields/armor/hull and a healthy amount of damage these things counter almost every frigate unit with ease...and they counter strikecraft too.

GOOD JORB UNDERSTANDING DAMAGE/ARMOR TYPES.

God I'm tired of trying to help you guys when half of you are like tumbler.

I'm tried of your arrogant comments personally. If you don't have anything to add to this discussion stop wasting our time.

To be fair, if you wouldn't make such odd assertions, he would take you more seriously and a more productive discussion could be going on. Things like "[flaks] counter almost every frigate unit with ease" are hard to take seriously. Just consider a little more carefully what you're saying before posting.

Flaks are tanks, as you have pointed out. However, their damage is hideously low to pretty much everything except strikecraft. They may be able to survive a large attack, but they will not be able to actually kill off a significant number of ships (remove enemy DPS) while the enemy is pretty much free to ignore them for other targets (infrastructure, capitals).

See the patch 1.04 change log.

Flaks have suffered a minor nerf. LR Frigates have suffered a major speed nerf.

Flak now does 75% damage to Bombers at a 75% hit chance, as compared to their previous 100% damage and 85% hit chance. Flaks also do 75% damage to all other Light targets as well, instead of their old 100%. They still do only 25% damage to everything heavier than Light.

Long-Range Frigates, now limited to speed 500, can no longer catch up to kiting Capital or Cruiser Carriers(which move at speeds of 500-525), while Fighters tear them apart. Now Fighters' Achilles Heel vs. Long-Range Frigates is gone and they can now be even more effective hard counters.

Now, Fighters do everything better than Flaks except for killing other Fighters. Fighters are even better against Bombers than Flaks are, and are of course much better against Long-Range Frigates, Scouts, Siege Frigates, Civilian Ships, etc. What's more, they can be switched over to Bombers for free for killing heavier targets if needed, and now, Bombers are more survivable against Flak.

Wrong.

They can't scratch Light Frigates. If a Defense Vessel has ALL 4 guns firing at different Light Frigates, it would be able to manage a whopping total of 5.55 DPS. Before Shield Mitigation and Regen/Repair are factored in. One gun would only do a pitiful 1.39 DPS. The Light Frigates also get a 35% damage bonus against Flaks, and will just kill them for just about no damage to themselves.

They'd also be useless against Scouts since Scouts are just roving around and looking at things or placing Probes/Timed Explosives etc., and can easily run away from the much slower Flaks after taking a negligibly tiny amount of damage.

It would also be a ridiculous freak occurrence if a Flak were to engage a Colony Frigate, which I can't see happening in case of any non-militia Flak ship.

Siege Frigates are already countered by their own hideous cost and supply requirements, so you won't need to shoot them since they won't be built in the first place. In case of the AI Siege-spams, 2-3 Hangar Defenses and/or a small group of Cruiser Carriers with Fighters on board will salvage a lot more population than the equivalent cost/supply worth of Flaks.

As for using Flaks to blockade Trade Routes by killing Trade Ships, this is again a bad idea. The Trade Ships will probably just fly past before the Flak guns can kill them, and when a group of Light Frigates arrives, the Flaks are dead. Unlike Carrier Cruisers, which can send Fighters to quickly pop every Trade Ship that enters the sector while remaining at the edge of the gravity well poised to jump at any time.

And any direct fight between 2 Flak Frigates will probably result in no conclusion, since Shield Mitigation and Regeneration would stop damage faster than the Flaks would be able to deal damage.

With the exception of Light Frigates and Flak Frigates, however, Fighters are deadly against all the above frigate types.

Well, I'd like to say a few things.

1) When comparing the DpS/supply ratio of various strikecraft groups against target armor type, I realized that bombers are pretty much the most atrociously useless unit in the entire game. Thank you for making this post, and prompting me to really analyze the situation instead of just relying on fuzzy, inconclusive field tests.

2) If you made any strikecraft good against medium armor, you would make carrier cruisers good at destroying their counter unit, the light frigate. This would be, needless to say, bad. The fragility of carrier cruisers is, well, intentional. They are supposed to be fragile.

3) Although light frigates are indeed useful against flak frigates, they still take a fairly absurdly long time to kill them, because as previously mentioned, the flak frigates are little tanks. This is very necessary, or bombers would be able to engage them relatively effectively, despite their poor damage against that armor type. However, it makes them way too good against LRMs. Luckily, 1.04 will change this, and makes them crap against everything except strikecraft, as it should be.

Okay here:

Any fleet with 20% flak as opposed to carrier-cruisers is going to have a problem when the other player decides he wants his strike craft to be effective. Target and take out the weak flak frigates first, and strike craft have free reign until reinforcements arrive. With the support of strike, the other 80% of your fleet can kill the remaining fleet with ease, and with less possible losses, considering strike craft are rebuilt for free.

All the thread has done is make me want to use strike craft in ways i had never thought of, and anyone who says that ohhh 50supply of carrier-cruisers vs 50-supply of LRMs or ANY other ship should be a proper test, with other variables introducing "noise," is grossly misunderstanding the S in RTS.

Great discussion !

In my own games, I've found that carriers work great as harrassment forces. As stand up forces, no way. In huge fleet battles, I keep a few flaks around, and generally ignore fighters/bombers. But they do have huge strategic uses.

Assume the original scenario of 10 frigates against a single carrier. Granted the carrier gets wiped if it stays to slug it out. BUT, if it jumps in and stays at the edge of the gravity well, pops a few ( 2 or 3 ) frigates using micromanagement, and then jumps out to a defended system, it has the ability to continue the fight in a much better spot, or repair/rebuild and jump back. You don't repair a popped frigate ! If it managed to kill 2 or 3 frigates each time, it would eventually win the day. Your opponent is faced with the choice of leaving the system undefended, or waiting for another bloody nose. You can use this tactic to sucker an opponent into facing a massed fleet in an adjacent system with phase jump inhibitors... heh. The advantage of a carrier group/fleet is that it can stay highly mobile by remaining outside the gravity well, playing hit and run against a less mobile opponent or static defenses. Up the ante and upgrade your jump speed..

A mobile strategy also works great against an opponent who fails to keep a reserve fleet. Get past the main skirmish lines, and a carrier group will TRASH entire systems. The speed of the bombers would allow it to take out all kinds of improvements in a flash while ignoring guass/missile platforms, and then jump out. You can also run for the next phase lane while your bombers are taking out tactical/logistical structures ( something a battle ship can't do ! ). Take out your opponents cap ship/frigate factories and you'll majorly annoy them, enough for them to have to dispatch a fleet to chase you down. Which has strategic implications of it's own assuming you planned for it. Or shoot up the trade port, or broadcast center.. All these cost resources, not only to build and research, but by impacting the income earned per second. If I've shot up a system, forced my opponent to delay an assault, hurt his economy, and ROYALLY pissed them off all in one move, I fgure it well worth the cost of a cap ship and a few cruiser carriers.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, but also don't use a shotgun to kill mosquitoes.

Personally, other than minor harrasment - the only time I would use fighters/bombers in a front line battle is with the TEC level 6 ability.

Don't know if anyone else has done the match - but at level 5 (usually you can get this or get very close to this before your first fight with another player) - you're sporting 4 squadrons, all with +3 armor and +30% damage as TEC.

Level 6 is probably the only redeeming quality to fighters/bombers in the game at the moment. Someone was mentioning dodging flak - that's all well and good if you're dictating the battle.

You don't dodge, when the battle is at your doorstep.

Sam W.