Well, tbh, we aren't talking about balance at all... They would remain balanced if the increase in firepower/hp was offset by an increase in cost.

You shouldn't be able to have a capital ship lead every one of your fleets, it should be an important decision whether you take your capital ship(s) out to attack, leaving your planets without their protection.

Right now capital ships are just another spam unit in big games. Playing on a huge map, by the time you are really fighting in big battles, capital ships are nothing special.

I think what most people want here is for capital ships to be SPECIAL, they are flagships, they shouldn't be just a bigger better cruiser with special abilities. When one shows up in your system you should be scrambling to get one of your own capitals to meet it head on.

I don't need to put the disclaimer about how I like the game and all... Though I kinda' just did.

Anyway, I think that the point should be made that the cap ships aren't exactly the fearful ships they should be. Would anyone in a frigate really go head to head against a cap ship? Logically they'd stay away and let another cap ship bother with it. I think the battle mechanics should go like this (though I know it wont): frigates want to attack other frigates and stay away from cruisers and caps, cruisers want to go after other cruisers and chase frigates around, but stay away from caps, and caps should run all other ships around and deal with other caps.

I have a picture of a battle in my head, but I guess it'd be really hard to describe it on here.

to the OP, Spoken like a true EVE player

That your ships and enemy ships slow to a stop to fire weapons would logically dictate that a CAP ship would immediately be able to wtfpwn cruisers and frigs, but thank the DEVS that the CAP ship doesn't or people'd just take 1 or 2 CAP ships in and mop up. I kind of like how the CAP ships are and not the wtfpwnmobiles other games make them. Would be cool to be able to set heavy guns/missiles against larger ships and put smaller guns/missiles against smaller ships -split weaponry.

Why the ships sit still in combat instead of orbit or why there aren't formation submenus -ala Star Trek Armada 2 formations- is something for the DEVS to answer. The battles are fun, but ponderous as each side digs into space like WWI soldiers.

My opinion, for what it's worth. I mostly like the way cap ships are now, but I agree that they die a little too fast and don't kill quite fast enough. I think the best fix for this though is a slight change in damage types.

The simple fact is that Capital type damage stinks. I think what it should do is 100% to Capital, keep the 25% to Very Light (indicating that it's hard for caps to bring their huge guns to bear on fast little fighters and bombers), but do much more damage to the other types. Perhaps this:

CAPITAL damage type
vs. Capital 100%
vs. Very Light 25%
vs. Light 200%
vs. Medium 150%
vs. Heavy 150%
vs. Very Heavy 125%

This would make capital ships do double damage to Frigates, whereas they currently do only 75%, which quite honestly makes little sense. Frigates aren't as big as cap ships, yes, but they certainly aren't so small that they can't be hit much more easily than strike craft.

Anyway, I think this is the only real change needed to make them feel more like very powerful doom ships. A few bursts from their weapons would kill most frigs very fast this way, but they'd still struggle a bit vs. heavy cruisers (which is fine).

I might try a mod with this, if it's something that can be easily fixed.

Yeah homeworld 2 is like...my favorite rts/4x game ever.

I like the bcs.. they wtfpwn and it's awesome

This is still very balanced chat

Plenty for and equal number against my suggestion...

How about some kind of compromise!?!?!

Late-game? Sure and to a point (with upgrades and paid levels), you 'can' get a very strong ship right out of the gates. How would this effect the early-game, though?

A level 10 Kol has roughly the same damage output, including fighter squadrons, as 4 heavy cruisers (maybe even more with everything combined) and that's not even counting abilities. If we increase the power of the ships to those levels, are players still, for example, going to get a free one at the beginning of the game when liquifiable frigates are pretty much all that's available for a fair bit of time?

Just read the topic interesting discussion really, lots of great points.

I have been wondering this myself, and upon reflection here is my own personal opinion.

The fact Cap ships are gained so early in the game negates the fact that they should be ubber.

I have no problems with them being Frigate munchers, if they are brought out at say tech level 5 or 6 and say cruisers coming out earlier at about level 3-4.

Personally, I would like them to make more of an impact, but I see for balance purposes the need to reduce their abilities.

The other option I've been thinking about is to make frigates perform better when a cap ship is in their fleet.

Moral boost, Military training and drills; give it what ever reason you want to call it, having an admiral in a Capital ship should help bolster the troops, that way the cap ships have a use in a fleet and can make the difference without pounding out damage, and without the need to move how early in the game you get them, you could also link in the Caps Ships Level to how much of a performance boost you get, a level 8 carrying a 5 star Admiral, and a level 3 carrying a Rear Admiral, would again provide slightly different but depth engaging sides to a Cap ship and its fleet....

Again personally I still agree with Nephy, they need to own Frigates in 2-4 volleys and Cruisers in 10-12 would be my gut call, I feel Cap ships only real Target of Concern should be other Capital ships, which is almost the way it works, just a few slight tweaks would be welcomed I think.

Love the moral element!

I know for sure if i am pilot of small fighter craft that i would feel much more "confident" if i have daddy CS near me

Moral is something i would also like to see in the game and it could easily be linked with Cap Ships...

Cool point imho

I'm just throwing this out there...what if Capital Ships were the only unit that could not be focus fired on, other than by other Capital Ships.

i'd rather see Cap Ships later in game and have them to be the ultimate killing machine which require lots of research and maybe even a late game construction facility....


They don't have the "WOW! A Cap Ship!" effect at the moment...

It'd be a little difficult to justify that. The biggest, most threatening ship in a fleet should be the easiest thing to focus fire on. Plus, what happens if you wipe out their fleet and only the cap ship remains. Everything beyond 1 frigate and your own cap ship will just sit around watching the show?

I would advocate that players would still get the freebie Cap ship. IMO, this allows for a paradigm shift. You would create a fleet based on supporting your Cap as opposed to using Caps to flesh out frigate/cruiser fleets.

Personally, I think the current setup for the capital ships is good. The only thing I would like to see, is an increase in level cap on them. Level 10 is too easy to obtain and towards the end game makes cap ships a huge not factor. They dont need to give them additional abilities, but increased damage, shields, and hull strength would make sure that cap ships are still a viable thing for endgames.

Yeah, just imagine you're thinking you're a badass with a level 10 Cap ship only to jump to a planet with a level 20.

I kinda agree but then again thats extreme approach to this issue...

I would still prefer to see nice little balance in a sense that Cap Ships shouldnt be "ultimate killing machines" but significantly more (fire)powerfull than they are now...

As i said in OP it really is just a question of eliminating that "silly" aspect of seeing big boy shooting at little one forever struggling to kill it... It just doesn't feel or look right...

I am aware of the fact this is also quite a chunky "balancing" job but my vote still goes for it in any case

They seem pretty dominant as is...

I'd rather they not change anything. Doubling the cost/supply would also make losing one a whole lot tougher to survive from. Right now I feel like the ships can be easily replaced and doubling the cost would mean losing your cap ship might easily lose the game.

I can't tell if people are taking account weapon, armor and shield upgrades into account in their arguments. How much do these various upgrades affect the cap ships in your opinion?

Regards,

T

I personally like Homeworld's design choices on ships better too. I wouldnt mind seeing a few more differences in ships and types in Sins. Right now, with all ships being 1 role only, and all caps being the same cost, it seems like a good game could be so much better with a better balance team.

There's a logistical problem with making cap ships too strong. If they are significantly more powerful than an equal supply of other ships, every game would just be a tech race to 16 capital ships with game results becoming more random and less based on strategy (since teching up to more and more cap ships means crippling your economy as a side-effect - the line between when this would be a good idea and when it wouldn't would be too fine to make a good strategic judgment).

As it is right now, in longer games, I think capital ships are TOO strong. Their REAL strength is that they improve a whole fleet of ships, not that they can tank a whole fleet of ships (which they more certainly can't, with a few exceptions).

I wonder how many fast destroyers were really killed with a salvo from a battleship's sixteen inch guns. by the time a battleship got a bead on the destroyer, it would've out manuevered the battleship. Sixteen inch guns are meant to kill other battleships, not fast moving frigates. The same can be said of the cap ship vs frigate battles in Sins.

As of now Cap ships are just about at the perfect balance point in EARLY GAME. About mid game they really lose steam and in LATE GAME they become a micro headache just to keep them alive. Not to mention they don't "scare" anyone at that point. I'd like to see where someone say's "oh crap he just jumped his lvl 10 cap ship in system." It should have an effect on the battle, but not obliterate everything.

The only thing that needs to change with them is to make them scale better when leveling. Increase damage and hull/shield till they become a factor in late game.

Just played a quick test game vs AI with a minor Cap mod. A MODD forum member was kind enough to increase the damage of the Kol's gauss railgun from 800 at level 3 to 1600 at level 3 (550@lvl 1>1000@lvl 2>1600@lvl 3). Nothing else in the game was changed. I have to say that one little change gave respectability to the Kol. It became the fleet leader and not the follower. There are no more sparring sessions with Cobalts. HCs put up a better fight, but 2 gauss blast and some autocannon fire later they also expire. This is how it should be imo. When the weapon system is a bit bigger than the ships that it is firing on, they should die in a short amount of time. The same should apply when a frigate sized target is hit by 4xPhase missles of the Vasari Devastator or the Heavy Beam cannons of the Advent Radiance. I'll be looking at the last two aforementioned vessels to determine which of their weapon systems or abilities could benefit from a 50% adjustment in order to return parity to the game.

Here is few more words to redefine my vision of this issue...

As we are - it seams to me that spams, any spams, be that infamous LRM spam, or some counter LRM spam, Heavy Cruiser spam or counter Heavy Cruiser spam, Scout spam or counter Scout spam etc... are predominant tactics and strategies... Once point of spamage is reached by one of the players domino effect usually begins straight away by more spamage and consequent counter spamage of some sort...

Now, I am pretty sure that if certain Capital Ship balancing job is done by making it fairly more powerful (and of course harder to get) game would take slightly different twist where spammers would think twice what is indeed better thing to do - to spam light / medium units or indeed to make more balanced fleet... More powerful Cap Ship by all means would NOT be counter to any spam tactic - no - but its might would make spammers think twice at very least making entire game more "balanced" and challenging...

So this thread - although pointing at very specific to the point issue - is also trying to tackle spamming monotony currently present in some players strats

As i said in previous post - i am fully aware of the fact that we are talking about significant change of gameplay dynamics here not just about simple balancing job as it might sound... So yes - without testing this idea properly its very hard to say if its crap or indeed great but my impression so far is that something like this should be done...

Since this thread acquired fair bit of interest - in fact much more than i expected - it would be great to hear what IC / SD thinks about all this

I agree with what you have said Neph. Would be interesting to see what Sins was like with powerful captial ships.