Misinformation and disinformation on the forums

from Sins Forums
I played a game last night where someone was completely convinced that LRMs now are trash and that even disciples can easily beat them. When I tried to tell him otherwise, that LRMs are still very very good, he proceeded to make wild claims about various things he'd read on the forums.

The fact is, the forums have a heck of a lot of posts that are completely untrue. A lot of people are claiming various things to be completely unbalanced/unbalanced when in reality, it's closer to the opposite. The reason for this is multiple.
1 - Newcomers. There are those who are still learning how to play and don't quite know the various strategies and counters yet and when they encounter something seemingly insurmountable, they immidately think it's imbalanced.
2 - Spreadsheet theorycrafters. These people will look at just the numbers and imagine their effects in game. The problem with this is that there's many other factors that they often fail to take into account such as ships turning, accel, max speed; range; unit combinations; player skill; etc.
3 - Bandwagon jumpers. These people usually view themselves as one part of a community that they often believe is "polarized". Once attached, they'll relentlessly agree and argue for their position even if they're completely wrong. Often, I've found, these people use ad hominem attacks in leiu of an actual argument that they don't have.
4 - "Elite" normal players. These people have gotten a false sense of their ability. They've been mainly playing against people who are new and completely crushing them. They then draw conclusions that would otherwise be untrue had the played against tougher opponents or people who really knew what they were doing.

I'm not providing a solution for any of this but I want people to be more aware and actually TEST the stuff they read. If someone says light frigs can now beat LRMs 1v1, don't take their word for it - try it out first. This actually goes for everything you read and learn. Critical thinking is the key.  The proliferation of this misinformation REALLY needs to stop.
52,230 views 26 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Whatever. Just because you don't understand that LRMs are now completely useless, and a cobalt would own a LRM in one to one combat doesn't mean you need to be ignorant about it. God.




 ;) 
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
Detailed analytical & critical work, JinxOfSin :

this time, at least, I agree with most of what you say ... even if I don't fit in any of your 4 categories ...

(Your « "Elite" normal players » expression might be viewed as an oxymoron by my linguistics teacher : a tiny detail ... even though I do admit that I do not perceive how one can be « elite » and « normal » at the same time.)
Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
See this is why I let other people argue to death about balance :)

I like dealing in facts. Bugs, fixes, modding.. no ambiguity there, it's one way or the other :P
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
(Your « "Elite" normal players » expression might be viewed as an oxymoron by my linguistics teacher : a tiny detail ... even though I do admit that I do not perceive how one can be « elite » and « normal » at the same time.)
End of quote


That's why the "Elite" was in quotes. They are elite only in their own perception of themselves; their true ability when measured against the rest of the population isn't anything approaching excellence.

Mind you, many of the so called elite people posting on the boards really are indeed elite and do know what they're talking about.
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Mind you, many of the so called elite people posting on the boards really are indeed elite and do know what they're talking about.
End of quote


Since I never compete against humans in MP Sins, JINX, I'll have to take your word for it :

I don't have the MP experience & expertise required to evaluate the (possible) gameplay level of forum posters.

I do respect & admire the competitive MP « elite », and I read its posts very carefully.

My stated & restated point, on other threads, was of an altogether different order :

0.1% of Stardock customers (the very competitive & competent elite) should not spoil the relaxed fun for the 99.9% who don't have the time & powerdrive to become proficient experts at Sins.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
0.1% of Stardock customers (the very competitive & competent elite) should not spoil the relaxed fun for the 99.9% who don't have the time & powerdrive to become proficient experts at Sins.
End of quote


Let's please not let this thread tumble down the same rocky cliff as those other balance threads. All I'm saying is that people need to test things themselves whenever they hear any strategy. Sure they can argue about he theory, but before they draw solid conclusions, please please test it. There's tons and tons of incorrect information here based off of assumptions or bad experiences.

Approach everything you do with a critical eye and listen to everything with a grain of salt. When more people do this, I think the forums will be infinitely more pleasant and much more informative.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Good god, opinions. WE MUST DESTROY THESE 'opinions' BEFORE WE START THINKING FOR OURSELVES.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
JinxofSin, you speak like you were a space Pony!!
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
I'd agree on all points, but I'm too busy rushing this guy's capital ship fleet with scouts. Someone on the forum says it's the best counter!
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
HAHA I remember reading that one too. And I was kinda newb when I read it. Then I played and was like, WTF was that forums guy thinking?
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Let's please not let this thread tumble down the same rocky cliff as those other balance threads.
End of quote


Agreed, JINX : your very detailed & crafted OP merits that the thread's main topic be respected.

Speaking for myself : I'll exercise restraint.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
I hear improving unit balance somehow negatively affects casual play in a way nobody can ever describe, but this argument from emotion is far more valid than any thread containing actual numbers or replays. ;)
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
OK seriously... I just mentioned how LRM's still beat light frigates and this gets posted

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/304529/page/1/#1653365

Are they intentionally trying to confuse newcomers to Sins?

If you're new to this game, know that LRM > light frigs > flak > LRM. Sure, it's not quite that simple, and LRM has a lot more utility than the other ships, but this is currently the golden rule in the game.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
I dunno, while that 'frig swarm beats LRMs' idea is pretty broken, it's pretty sad when people will just leave the game when they see an LRM blob. They're not impossible to handle (but Disciples aren't a winrar counter), but from a certain perspective anything that keeps people in the game and trying new things is good.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
I hate misinformation, and I've been trying to fight it back, with little luck. I posted https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=302204 , but someone needs to make a bigger list and get it stickied or something so everyone can see it. I know a lot of new players are fooled by the constant posts that complain about balance issues but the people never bother to post replays or anything, they simply complain things are broken and you have to take their word for it.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
Great post and I generally agree but
2 - Spreadsheet theorycrafters. These people will look at just the numbers and imagine their effects in game. The problem with this is that there's many other factors that they often fail to take into account such as ships turning, accel, max speed; range; unit combinations; player skill; etc.
End of quote

is quite wrong.
What you are describing are bad theorycrafters. Sins is really not that complicated so by looking at the numbers you can say a lot about balance. Just taking a short look at the ingame damage display of course doesn't help but digging through the game files and getting exact DPS values and stuff like that produces very good results. Also, the fire arks have been discussed to death so that every good theorycrafter should know how to take them into account, same goes for turning based micro stuff.
Actually I'd say after being really, really good and playing a lot (against good opponents), doing some real spreadsheet work is the second best way to know stuff about the game (and to make competent posts about balance).
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Right you are - theory crafting is fine for discussion when all the variables are taken into account. Testing it between two good players of equal skill is still the best way to conclude anything though.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Right you are - theory crafting is fine for discussion when all the variables are taken into account. Testing it between two good players of equal skill is still the best way to conclude anything though.
End of quote


I've recently been playing several games like this: testing ideas against various common tactics you see in MP. In particular, Advent don't seem as bad as the numbers alone suggest due to the unit synergy, but it's always informative to try several approaches (which isn't always possible in an open-mp game).
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
This reads like a pre-emptive smear of anyone who might disagree with you in future, prefaced with a jab at the un-named person you talked to during your game.

You decry ad hominem arguments, but the main thrust of your post is four labels to put on other posters... and labelling the man you're debating with is definitely an attack on the man rather than their words, which is the English meaning of the latin tag "ad hominem".

I can at least agree with the advice in your closing paragraph that people should use their own experience when weighing what they read... but I would add that they should acknowledge the possibility that sometimes their experience is not complete. Especially in any discussion of game bugs.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
but I would add that they should acknowledge the possibility that sometimes their experience is not complete.
End of quote


That's what I meant in the fourth point, "They then draw conclusions that would otherwise be untrue had the played against tougher opponents or people who really knew what they were doing"

Even if a skill works for you, you still have to consider how well yours and your opponent's tactics were executed. A lot of people draw conclusions immediately after beating a single player who unfortunately didn't really know what they were doing.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
In your reply to post #19, JINX, I see that you were quite capable of « restraint » : you didn't take the bait ...
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
And nor do I, Sorceress.

Jinx's original post risked legitimising labelling other posters and I feel that's something we should avoid. I don't wish to make any criticisms of him as a person.


Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
lol i think its funny how people that think they are so smart can come into a room and completely miss the whole pouit of the thread XD TEST STUFF YERSELVES THEN ARGUE dont argue just for the sake of trying to act smart...silly little fellows
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Mind you, many of the so called elite people posting on the boards really are indeed elite and do know what they're talking about. Since I never compete against humans in MP Sins, JINX, I'll have to take your word for it :I don't have the MP experience & expertise required to evaluate the (possible) gameplay level of forum posters.I do respect & admire the competitive MP « elite », and I read its posts very carefully.My stated & restated point, on other threads, was of an altogether different order : 0.1% of Stardock customers (the very competitive & competent elite) should not spoil the relaxed fun for the 99.9% who don't have the time & powerdrive to become proficient experts at Sins.
End of quote


I'm just going to say this once : All we want is a balanced game, balance will be good for everyone and if it isn't achieved it will still have little to no effect upon the "99.9%" of casual gamers who don't particularly care.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
I'm just going to say this once : All we want is a balanced game, balance will be good for everyone and if it isn't achieved it will still have little to no effect upon the "99.9%" of casual gamers who don't particularly care.
End of quote


I think the problem is that some people are of the opinion that balance somehow ruins single player. They've never actually come out and said how or why, they just keep repeating that same doctrine.

To further complicate things, there's people spouting certain balance issues that don't exist. This just ends up creating mass confusion and the real balance issues don't get the attention they deserve.