LRM Spam is still king.....for now

These stats do not tell the whole story:

Disciples have Medium Armor and do Anti Heavy damage.
LRM's have Light armor and do Anti Medium damage.

Disciples vs LRM's = 75% damage
LRM's vs Disciples = 150% damage

This is the 2:1 ratio that makes LRM's chew up Disciples. Advent are forced to rely on their Disciples early game, but they should start making Defense Vessels asap if they have to contend with a large LRM force.

You also forgot to mention range, which is hugely in favor of LRM's.

Did you account for Disciples huge advantage in shields?

Yes, 1 on 1 the LRM is a better ship. However, with equal amount of time and equal amount of resources spent the Advent player can produce many more Disciples than the TEC can build LRMs.

This numerical superiority on the side of Advent evens the odds against TEC.

Remember, this is a SPAM vs SPAM comparison.

Cykur just owned your little flashy coloured post in like 2 seconds. Rofl, go back to Cod4 or Halo 3 or whatever!

This is a SPAM vs SPAM comparison (not a ship vs ship).

I'm not saying the Advent is better. I'm simply saying it is balanced.

Yes, it is true, you can have more Disciples faster, and there is power in numbers.

That said, I just felt it should be pointed out that LRM's are specifically designed to kill the basic assault frigate (Disciples, Skirmishers, Cobalts). You better have significant numerical superiority in this situation, otherwise do the math on whether 2 Disciples are better than 1 LRM because that is what your losses are going to look like.

You are ignoring the shield factor.

Javelis LRM Frigate = 280
Disciple Vessel = 425 WINNER

By the way, I have fended off every LRM spammer in the past few days with Disciple spamming.

I have never been overran by LRM spammers eversince the new patch 1.03 and adopting this tactic.

I 100% disagree. It's 1 to 1 when a numerical superior Disciple fleet faces a smaller LRM fleet.

Well, the numbers give it a shot, I'll go test this out online next time I see a LRM spammer and report back.

Absolutely Kruelgor, if you mass Disciples and use a repair bay to keep them in the fight longer, you can hold off an LRM spammer for a while. Especially if he is feeding ships to you in small batches.

However, the longer the game goes on, and if you are fighting a smart player who masses his LRM's, I think you will find yourself in trouble.

Heck, you can probably Disciple rush an LRM spammer and get 10 Disciples in his base as the first LRM is rolling out of the factory. All I'm trying to say is your comparison misses out on some important stats, namely the damage vs armor mechanics that make LRM's destroy Disciples. In a war of pure attrition between skilled players, I don't think Disciples will come out on top in the long run.

As the game goes on, neither the Disciple or LRM are effective.

Also, no "repair bay" is needed by the Advent to balance this contest.

YES Kruelgor, I said HAVE numberical superiority OTHERWISE face 2:1 losses. If you DO HAVE superiority, you might inflict 2:1 losses on the other guy.

That is why so many people think Flak doesn't work, they try and use 5 Flak to fight 40 LRM's. If you show up with 20 Disciples while he has 5 LRM's, you can destroy the LRM's as they try and mass.

LOL
There really is not much more to say.
LRM are the counter to Light Frigates.
What will you propose next? Mass strike craft to overcome flak spam?

Owned again...

This thread has to be a joke.

See, this is the EXACT thing I'm addressing

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/304456

LRMs kill light frigs period. Obviously, if you completely outnumber the LRMs with your light frigs you'll win, but against a competent player, that's not going to happen. Please stop spreading your brand of 'truthiness'. Test it against good players before concluding it as a valid counter.

I just had a game last night with a guy named Rexus who was utterly convinced that disciples beat LRMs thanks to some of your posts. He wouldn't listen to anything I said and kept spewing stuff he read in the forums instead. That someone could be so grossly misinformed prompted me to write my above post.

No, I think he's quite serious. Rexus was even quoting some MAGOG clan stuff when he was screaming at me how great disciples are against LRM's yesterday. No matter how hard I tried to be civil and tell him he's wrong, he refused to listen to reason.

825 effective hp vs. 780 effctive hp.

LRM with 19.5 dps (against target) and 780 hp against disciple with 6 dps (also against target) and 825 hp.


Assuming the degree of shield mitigation affects both ships more or less equally, then the LRM will kill the disciple more than 3 times faster. Or, to put it more quantitatively, the disciple will deal approximately 240 damage to the LRM by the time it's been iced. Do the math and we find that one TEC LRM can actually match 2 disciples at the same time, and ice both of them with like 60 HP left.

Shield mitigation probably tips things a bit in the disciples favor though. Disciples have a much lower damage per volley, so it's going to take longer for them to bump up a LRMs shield mitigation. So I bet in a real world fight the two disciples are going to barely come out on top, but one of them is definitely dead, and the other one is going to be hurting. However... You can build a lot more of them. A -LOT- more of them. Faster build time, you start building sooner, no research required, no military lab required...

I'm glad you found an advent counter for early game LRM spamming. But once crystal production steps up in the mid game and the LRM spammer comes closer to matching your ship per ship production I'm guessing this would drop off fast. Basically you're capitalizing on the fact that the LRM-er is going to make his move before he reaches that point. So, awesome. But it's not a function of unit stats, it's a function of economics. The shield/hp/dps values of the disciple are more or less irrelevant, the only relevant fact is that you can build a shitload more of them by the time the average LRM-er gets ready to attack. It might be worthwhile to try out spamming seeker ships instead. They will deal the same damage to a LRM, they have the same HP, and they will take much less damage. Granted the disadvantage of this is that you wouldn't have a prayer of taking the fight to him, as anti-light damage does almost nothing to structures. But, you've countered his fleet for a fraction of the cost, so...

But, all of that having been said...
Thanks.

Sorry you are wrong. Feel free to come try this against me i will gladly prove my point and provide the gameplay video here.

Pff, you can beat any strategy by massing X scouts.

You compared their antimatter, seriously? In your example, the light frigate's antimatter is used to steal anti-matter from the LRMs, but the LRMs don't have any, so both of their antimatter counts are completely irrelevant, plus as you advertise it only requiring level 0 military, it wouldn't be able to use its antimatter no matter what.

In reality, you would need *at least* 1.6 light frigates for every LRM in order to win, and that's not even taking into account the LRMs taking advantage of their range.

Actually, the real way to make sure an LRM never does any irreparable damage to your fleet again is to send a single Halcyon capital ship at them. You can send multiple Halcyons if you want too as well as drone hosts.

Everyone reading this is now about to type a response slamming this approach for it being naive and outright stupid. If you sent a Halcyon or drone host to do a head on fight with an LRM blob then I would completely agree. However, if you issue a circular move order to the Halcyon or drone hosts so that they move around the outer ring of the gravity well, then the LRM's will have a ton of problems getting a shot off because of the way targeting is set up. They'll end up chasing your ships and about the only thing they'll hit is a couple of drone hosts. The chance to hit during a pursuit like this declines and it gives friendly fighters more time to do their work and take out LRM's. You can use this strategic positioning to your advantage and even bring in other forces to phase jump in behind the LRM's and get in a surprise attack if your opponent is not micro-managing the battle.

Remember, order your ships to fly around the outer ring of the gravity well and try to make something between a pentagon and octagon for their flight paths. Every time your ships have to turn they stop so limiting the number of turns is critical. By the time the enemy finds out what you're doing he'll have lost a bunch of LRM's. Some people think this is a cheap strategy and promptly quit, but I don't see how it's any worse than an LRM blob. This is just another example of how you can outplay your opponent by thinking outside of the box.

What IS it with all the quitting? I'm in my 40s; been playing games online since the day it was first possible, but I don't remember ever seeing so much quitting ever in MP games till recently. Now it seems rampant, almost common. Even with SC, I never had people "just quit" even one MP game that I ever played, even large team games.

Yes, it is a smart tactic to keep your carriers on the move. This can make the difference in a close battle where you have sufficient carriers and strikecraft present to take out the LRM's.

BUT a single Halcyon? ....either the LRM's are not in sufficient quantity to be a threat, in which case your Halcyon can kite them or just engage them directly, or they are in sufficient quantity to be a threat, in which case they will kill your Halcyon. LRM's are not real maneuverable, but they are fast, and they have very long range. While they won't get in as many shots while you move, moving does not make you invincible.

ZJBDragon call me a flamer all you want but im now convinced you post utter misleading rubbish in threads just for fun.

Kiting is a valid strat however 15 lrms will still kill your cap ship. I can have this many lrms by the first wave of pirates.

Additionally STOP WITH THE MISINFORMATION.

I see so many posts in these forums saying do this to beat lrms.

Let me clear this up for you nice and easy. There is only 2 real ways you are going to beat a tec lrm rusher as advent and by beat i mean hold you own and ultimately lose to tec because they are superior in this patch.

Number 1. Radiance cap ship and repair bays.
Number 2. Mothership + malice + defense vessals

Out of all the "light frigs" the disciples have the best chance against LRM. This is designed, I assume, because advent cannot LRM spam effectively. This is not to say that an advent doing disciple-spam will really have a chance against a TEC doing LRM spam. Yes yes, in any single game, a advent spamming disciples can beat a TEC player doing LRM-spam...skill level, economy, etc, all play a role.

How about doing a simple test: Pick 20 LRM, add up their supply/crystal/metal/credit costs. Find how many is a "reasonable" number of disciples for a similar supply/crystal/metal/credit cost...Do a battle between them...See who wins. My prediction? You will have 12-14 or so LRM left and 0 disciples. How do I know this? Because we've (Cykur, myself, the IRC sins community) have tested LRM vs cobalts...Not exactly disciples, but still, the results should be close enough.

You can still win with disciple spam after they are LRM-spamming, but don't kid yourself...Your winning with a handicap.

This is the most ridiculous thing i've seen. Defense vessels will own massed lrms, put em with a mother ship kicking off shield regen and they win big time. The LRMS MAIN weakness is it only fires from one arc, use that to your advantage and keep moving the 360 degree firing arc of the defense vessels away from their main arc youll get alot more mitigation by not even taking hits, the mothership as well has like a 270 deg arc, plus there reasonably cheap and take little supply, you will own him in an attrition war if he keeps building lrms. If you can get a second cap ship get another mothership focus on shield regen and put points u have to into malice. Both are area effect dps and shield regen which couple insanely well with the 360 deg firing arc of the defense vessel. Plus simply rely on movement tactics not on focus firing and youll own them by not uping their shield mitigation. Make sure you put your fleet into tight formation, hold position, move together and keep the defense vessels clumped on the mothership.