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RT4X - understanding what it means

RT4X - understanding what it means

A discussion

I've seen people who argue that Sins of a Solar Empire is not a "real 4X" but is really a conventional RTS.

I suspect most people are of the same mind as I on this topic: Sins of a Solar Empire is a game that combines 4X depth with real-time gameplay.  That is what the game promises and I think that is what it delivers.

Here are some of the game mechanics of Sins that I think make it quite unique for a game that operates in real-time:

#1 Each race has about 100 different technologies to research.  I just counted them up and if you count the military and civilian technologies plus the fleet supply technologies you end up with about 100. And that does not count the fact that many technologies have multiple levels to them. 

#2 Players can win through multiple paths. I won a game on-line with culture on Saturday for instance.

#3 The pacing of the game is unlike any other RTS I've ever played.  It's not about reflexes. It's not about how fast you click things. It's not about mastering hot keys to access special powers. It's about your ability to build a coherent, effective strategy to obtain specific objectives. OODA. Observe. Orient. Decide. Act.  That is the essence of STRATEGY. 

I could list many other elements but these 3 elements I think make Sins stand out from other real time strategy games.  That is why people have compared it to a Kohan in space or Master of Orion in real time. 

Certainly the game does not have the depth of say Space Empires V. But then again, neither does Galactic Civilizations.  But the fact the game does not require manipulating a spread sheet or what have you does not make the game a non-4X game.  Explore. Expand. Exploit. Exterminate.  Sins of a Solar Emprie most certainly satisfies that.

The reason the game has become so popular with players is because there are a ton of people, people like me and I suspect like most of you reading this, that have waited a logn time for a game that is about STRATEGY. That lets us observe the strategic situation of a given map, figure out a strategy and execute on it.

 

121,197 views 138 replies
Reply #101 Top
Excerpt from reply #85 :

« This game is entirely RTS in my eyes. [...] Some of my posts may sound biting, but I feel as if I've been deceived by the devs. »

Excerpt from reply #93 :

« I'm sorry if this sounds scathing but I'm feeling pretty cheated. »


@ Ironclad & Stardock creators :

How can you Adults take those types of feelings with any measure of serious concern ?!

They merely represent minuscule, petty & obviously unfair attitudes.

In that context, reply #99, by Blair Fraser of Ironclad,  :SURPRISED:  appears to me as a too generous gesture :

The quote, there, did not merit any serious concern.  :NOTSURE:   
Reply #102 Top
Ok, why this or that RTS game isn't a 4X.

Exploring. In Warcraft, this amounts to lifting the fog of war, seconds of the game. You have to be aware of incoming attacks, but that's not exploration, just scouting. A recon screen in front of your combat lines is hardly cause for saying you continue exploring throughout the game. This holds true for most of the other RTS games people have mentioned. Scouting plays a dominant role in keeping tabs on your opponent, exploring is a trivial process, something that's done the same way every time and has little bearing, if any. Exploration in the typical RTS game is one dimensional, find the enemy base. Calling Warcraft an exploration game is almost as bad as saying it's packing material because it comes in a cardboard box. Unfortunately, you still explore.

Expanding, the kicker for most. What is expansion in the typical RTS game? You start with a command center type structure, and build up around it. Some very large
scale games like supreme commander actually make it reasonable to set up satellite installations, refueling bases, a rolling front line of infrastructure taken all the way to the enemy base. Others like Kohan are even more expansion based, it's entirely 4X style in how expansion is done. If the RTS game is most efficiently played with a single base of operations, it has no expansion at all, and is thus NOT a 4X in any way, shape or form. This kills 90% of them, due to shitty implementation that creates severely damaging results when you encounter the enemy force with a portion of yours. You get raped, and do minuscule damage, and the rest of your army then gets raped too. The opposing side is a game like Civ, where an army attacking is going to lose comparable forces regardless of how much bigger it is. You could bring a billion warriors and you're still equally fucked by a single defender, he's going to kill that first guy and maybe a second. Having three attackers would have been much more effective.

Exploit. Most RTS games have this one down pretty good. They generally have less complex methods of exploiting them, horrifying ones like the warcraft games worker lines or automated resources are the most common type. Some RTS games even have more complex systems, such as Rise of Legends with the neutral points of varying types that you capture for different bonuses and resource incomes, and the expanding cities that you improve to boost your limitations. Generally speaking, any RTS fits the 4X definition on exploitation.

Exterminate. A real no brainer here, I think this one is obvious enough that no one needs it explained.

The definition of a 4X game has nothing at all to do with a culture victory, or an ultimate research goal. It's exactly what it stands for, explore, expand, exploit, exterminate. Most RTS games lack the first two almost entirely, exploration being a token process, and expansion being counterproductive. When you combine them into the full definition, very few RTS games actually follow any of it. They are not four separate sections, but a process. You explore your surroundings, expand outward, exploit the resources you're taking into your empire, and exterminate the enemy. This kinda negates the whole alternative victory condition if you stick to the original meaning, diplomatic, cultural, research, all that stuff is counter to the original definition.

Warcraft is not a 4X game because expansion is a no no, and exploiting comes independent of the limited expansion that is possible. Rise of Legends is a 4X game, by definition. You explore(a severely limited process yes, but relevant to the expansion, not just to find the enemy base), expand into the neutral sites, exploit their resources, and exterminate the enemy with them. Is it the same style of game as MOO? No. MOO was a large scale, turn based space 4X with stack combat and an emphasis on research, Rise of Legends is a fast paced RTS with realistic tactical combat and a comparatively minuscule research factor. They are both 4X, it's no more arguable than saying Australia isn't a continent because it's smaller than all the rest. When something is defined as such, it is. Being arbitrary is the nature of a definition.

Sins is a 4X, you explore your surroundings, expand outward, exploit the resources, and exterminate the enemy. Rather straight forward and unambiguous. Sins is also an RTS, as the definition of RTS applies to any and all real time strategy games, regardless of whether they fit into the definition of 4X as well. Legions of Iron fits the 4X genre like a glove as well, if with a horrifyingly bad game play. Homeworld doesn't, no expansion. There are many games labeled as RTS that are 4X, not many of them are space games, and I haven't played any with the scale of Sins that were even marginally good, but there are a lot of them.

Quicky multi-player people, STFU. :) Even on your 10 planet map, you're still playing a 4X even when it doesn't feel like MOO and has no depth outside of combat. That the asinine comments don't apply to a game of size and are thus irrelevant even if they were to define the game as a 4X is added reason to give it a rest.
Reply #103 Top
Exploring. In Warcraft, this amounts to lifting the fog of war, seconds of the game.
End of quote


Exploring in Sins consists of making two/three scouts and clicking auto-explore. That also takes less than a minute of hands-on effort. Oh yes, if there are multiple stars, you'll have to do a little research before you can cover the whole map but once that research is complete, it's still only a few more seconds of hands-on effort.

The definition of a 4X game has nothing at all to do with a culture victory, or an ultimate research goal. It's exactly what it stands for, explore, expand, exploit, exterminate.
End of quote


I suspsect that the reason this gets submitted as a definition is because beyond additional victory conditions, and as you've pretty well illustrated, 4X is an incredibly vague term that could easily apply to nearly any other RTS.

Now, if we're going to conclude that a number of other games also fit the bill as a RT4X, then great. I agree.
Reply #104 Top
I just made up the word RT4X 3 years ago to describe the game we were making because it felt so different than anything we'd ever played or heard of before. In that sense it doesn't matter what RTS or 4X really is - RT4X is its own classification and because I made up the word I can put whatever I want into its meaning. If you want a definition just play Sins because RT4X is whatever Sins is.
End of quote
Best post ever!

Boxes. Everything must fit! Sad.

Anyway, know that there are a few people (like, a lot) out here that understand what you're trying to accomplish, and are having fun.

I'm not saying there aren't things I'd like to see added or changed, but don't get discouraged by the negativism from people that only want to turn your brainchild into yet another clone of all those "other" games.

Reply #105 Top
Boxes. Everything must fit! Sad.
End of quote


This thread wasn't started by anyone who's questioning the RT4X label. Frogboy said he wanted a discussion about why this game fits in its own box so we're discussing. Had he not made the thread, I wouldn't have had word one to say about it.

For my part, I'm not being negative. I'm just being bored at work, and I've said at least twice now that whatever the hell anyone wants to call it, I enjoy the game. Again, he wanted to discuss the box that he feels it fits into so we're discussing.
Reply #106 Top
Wow, I would never have expected this type of comment. The rest of the world has been shocked at how much extra material we've already put out and Frogboy just outlined a whole bunch of new stuff. It's even been making news on some of the major sites... I don't think this is a fair statement at all and if anything we are near the top of the heap in terms of providing new material and incentives to stick around. (We've had 3 major updates in just under 1.5 months with much more to come)
P.S Yes, we are looking into simplifying the map sharing process
End of quote


I think the type of support you provide for your games is always going to be somewhat double-edged. I bought Sins the day of release but it was a close call for me. I knew full well that purchasing now wasnt going to get me the complete experience and that waiting 12 months and buying it then was probably a better option. Its really hard to believe that once you commit to provide major updates post release that the quality/quantity threshold for the game isnt going to be lowered fully in the knowledge that you can fix things later (and maybe even charge for it). And when you come onto the forum and make comments about diplomacy as you have done, its very easy to jump to such conclusions.

Anyway, I dont want to draw things off topic.
Reply #107 Top
Blair Fraser : Of everything mentionned here the point I agree most strongly with is: yes, Sins diplomacy needs serious work and we will be re-doing it (probably for the expansion).
End of quote


Blair Fraser : Diplomacy went out the way it is because we liked it and hardly anyone complained about it - it is NOT broken, it is working as intended.
End of quote


Aren't these two statements contradictory? If it's working exactly as intended, why does it 'need serious work'?
Reply #108 Top
Following that, he said:

Obviously, post-release we have a much bigger sample set and the overall concensus is people want it changed - so it will be. This is the type of support you get from Ironclad and we've been doing it from the start: we listen to what people have to say and actually make fundamental changes in the game based on their input.
End of quote


... Which means that they liked it the way it was when it shipped but they're changing it because quite a few of their customers didn't.
Reply #109 Top
I just hope that the expansion causes this game to cover new ground. Part of the reason master of orion 3 failed is it tried to cover mainstream and a tiny market at the same time, and ended up alienating both sides and landing somewhere in the abyss in between, with lots of cool features cut but still complicated enough to keep the mainstream players away. I still like moo3, but it would be so much more if it had stayed true to its course. I fear this game will suffer the same fate.
Reply #110 Top
This game is entirely RTS in my eyes. The tech tree is easily ignored, for the most part. Micromanagement wins the day in all the battles I've fought. You can get away with only building 1 or 2 types of units, even against hard AI. The Best strategy is generally to use your entire fleet as 1 unit, and not bother to split it up into sub fleets, in most cases. You acquire a planet, click 3 or 4 times, and then can largely ignore it until either the end of the game or it is attacked.
End of quote


I'd agree with that gameplay summary, it matches every game I've played (no matter how large the map and no matter how much I've tried to mix up my tactics).

As to the genre question, the RTS players blame the lack of options and repetitiveness of the gameplay on the 4X elements. The 4X players blame the real time aspect for stripping all the depth and options out of the gameplay and leaving simple, repetitive "build a ball of units, hurl it at the enemy, repeat until done" gameplay. We're both missing the underlying point, which is that at the end of the day it's not a fun game for us. It's just that it's easiest to blame the problems of the title on whichever genre you like least.
Reply #111 Top
I can't believe this discussion is still going on. Let's just make it simple, and call it a game. It's a game, in space.
Reply #112 Top
Up front, I love this game. If I wasn't going into the last month of 1L year at law school, I would have it installed right now. But if you guys are thinking expansion pack stuff, please add branching tech trees. Force us to make hard choices about what techs we want, and then buff all the techs. Make us want all of them, but only get half. Then make them powerful and meaningful. Techs right now are good, but I want them all and am only limited by cash on hand.

For example, take World of Warcraft. The talent system, its genius. Players have to think, what do I want to be good at? What am going to be doing? If we had that in SOASE, the 4X element would be magnified to epic levels!

Suggestions:
Scientist developed lasers - +5% range +5% re-fire
OR
Mercenary lasers - -15% range +10% damage

The player can only research one. One tech is an all around tech, one trades something to get more power.

Heavy shields +100 shields on ships (better for small ships, crap on capitals)
OR
Resilient shields +20% regen (great for hi regen ships, poop on little guys)

Then maybe some prestige techs, like crazy ones for mega maps.
Kinda like Tech II ships from Eve.
Once you get 16 military tech labs, you can research your ships again, upgrading them to Tech II. +10% bonus all around or something.

Oh yeah, make this all permanent. Yes, noobz will whine. But it will make them better players by forcing them to make hard choices.
Reply #113 Top
Part of the reason master of orion 3 failed is it tried to cover mainstream and a tiny market at the same time, and ended up alienating both sides and landing somewhere in the abyss in between, with lots of cool features cut but still complicated enough to keep the mainstream players away.
End of quote


No, the reason that MOO3 failed is because it was a trying to cover too much and got pushed out the door too early. They weren't just making the next 4X game, they were attempting to create a 5X game. And they were trying to load it with a lot of features that weren't in the first two (more this, more that, more user automation, real-time battles, fleets the size of your grandma's family tree). They realized the mess they had made and tried to wrangle it in. And then they had a hard deadline smashed over their heads and had to cut out a bunch of features to get it out the door.

What was released was a mess.

I'm sorry to snipe but MOO3 was billed as the next great thing and I've never felt so burned in my life. I tried to play it and stuck with it for a while. And MOO2 was my favorite game of my post-college days. But I just had to admit that the game sucked and move on.

But I digress... SoaSE rules. Blair rocks. Frogboy is the man. Yadda-yadda-yadda.
Reply #114 Top
The tech tree is easily ignored, for the most part.
End of quote


Ha! Are you serious? The tech tree is extremely vital if you want to win a game. Perhaps you're speaking from a single player point of view. I don't know much about that. I only play multiplayer.

You acquire a planet, click 3 or 4 times, and then can largely ignore it until either the end of the game or it is attacked.
End of quote


3 or 4 clicks? Why do you grossly underestimate?

You wouldn't last very long in a multiplayer game if you really stand by these absurd statements.

Reply #115 Top
This game is definitely not your traditional RTS (real-time strategy) game.

Traditional RTS games limit the scope to single map battles, while Sins incorporates both single map battles and Grand Strategy.

HOI2 (Hearts of Iron 2) attempted the RTS Grand Strategy idea but failed miserably. Sins has done a fantastic job, although I believe there should be an option to add a TIMER to the game and a TOTAL SCORE for each player.

Maybe an alternate genre name for Sins could be RTGS (Real-Time Grand Strategy)
Reply #116 Top
Blair Fraser : Of everything mentionned here the point I agree most strongly with is: yes, Sins diplomacy needs serious work and we will be re-doing it (probably for the expansion). Blair Fraser : Diplomacy went out the way it is because we liked it and hardly anyone complained about it - it is NOT broken, it is working as intended.Aren't these two statements contradictory? If it's working exactly as intended, why does it 'need serious work'?
End of quote

Basically, the system serves its purpose and is not broken thus deeming it unplayable. However it could use some improvements to make it better.



Reply #117 Top
You wouldn't last very long in a multiplayer game if you really stand by these absurd statements.
End of quote


If that's true, then it's all the more an indictment of the single player experience (which is why many, I'd even venture most, of us bought the game). The two things that are most harming this game right now, and that should be fixed in a patch (not an expansion) IMO, are the unplayable single player diplomacy system and the preposterously weak AI. Unfortunately, I see that the devs have already said that diplo isn't going to be fixed in a patch, but will be in an expansion. Why would I trust Ironclad enough to buy an expansion when they shipped this game with broken, unplayable diplo and cakewalk level AI and proceded, in every patch, to serve the MP community over the needs of the SP community? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
Reply #118 Top
Why would I trust Ironclad enough to buy an expansion when they shipped this game with broken, unplayable...bla bla bla
End of quote


Where have you been? Every major popular pc game ALWAYS requires patches to fix things. That's the just the nature of games.

You should be grateful that SD provides patches and will continue to provide patches. I know I'm grateful.

By the way, the diplomacy is not broken. Maybe you should go play CIV4 or something.

Reply #119 Top
Why would I trust Ironclad enough to buy an expansion when they shipped this game with broken, unplayable...bla bla blaWhere have you been? Every major popular pc game ALWAYS requires patches to fix things.
End of quote



They've explicitly said they won't patch the diplo, so that's irrelevant to the discussion. Ironclad has put forth a very aggressive patch schedule, that's admirable. They released a very polished game, that's also admirable. However, if the parts of the game I care about (AI and diplo, in this case) are not in working order, everything else is kind of for naught, frankly. If it's not a good single player game, it's a waste of my money to buy.
Reply #120 Top
A couple of those previous statements were harsh and unwarrented. I agree with Blair's statement about providing extra material. He's right on about that. The game delivers.

Regarding improvements to diplomacy, it works nicely for the most part. I don't think it needs an overhaul or anything. It just needs to be a little smarter to avoid those ridiculous moments. For example, a race I've all but exterminated should not be asking me to do any favors. It's almost comical when you're taking out an opponnents last planet and he says your failure will not go unpunished. Doesn't look like your going to do much punishing buddy, since you'll be dead in about 2 minutes.
Reply #121 Top
If it's not a good single player game, it's a waste of my money to buy.
End of quote


Are you saying Sins is not a good single player game? What game do you consider a good single player game?
Reply #122 Top
One other note I'd like to make regarding future updates, I'd like to see some buffing of the tech tree. Personally I don't feel the tech tree needs to be expanded at all, but it feels stingy. I say buff up the tech tree and give us the goodies.
Reply #123 Top
If it's not a good single player game, it's a waste of my money to buy.Are you saying Sins is not a good single player game? What game do you consider a good single player game?
End of quote


At present, Sins is not a good single player game, no. I keep hoping that patches and mods will change that, but the commentary provided by Blair earlier and the patch schedule posted by Frogboy doesn't give me much hope.

As to good single player games, I could provide you a list a mile long but it wouldn't serve any purpose in this thread. I've already stated what I think needs to be changed to make THIS a good single player game (fix AI, fix diplo, add some depth to the non-combat portions of the game), and that's all that really matters for the discussion at hand.
Reply #124 Top
However, if the parts of the game I care about (AI and diplo, in this case) are not in working order, everything else is kind of for naught, frankly. If it's not a good single player game, it's a waste of my money to buy.
End of quote

Both AI and diplomacy are in "working order" but they could both be improved. Neither are broken or prevent you from playing the game

Reply #125 Top
Both AI and diplomacy are in "working order" but they could both be improved. Neither are broken or prevent you from playing the game
End of quote


I have to agree with this. If you read through threads where he posts, Vinraith is very vocal about his desires to improve the AI and improve the diplomacy. And he's certainly entitled to his opinion. Can either be improved? Of course. But either of these aspects don't reflect a broken game.

I make the diplomacy work for me. At the moment, a half-dozen Hard AI keep me pretty tasked. I think it's a good single-player game. But that's my opinion. Vinraith and I obviously disagree on this point.

What we *do* agree on is that diplo and AI can be improved upon. What I've read is that they will. And I'd never argue that we could use a few more victory conditions. But in the meantime I'm happy with what I have. If IC patches it timely (which they have seemed to do) then I look forward to it. If not, then I'll put SoaSE down after a while and revisit when they do.