Subverters are simply god like in their ability to sway a battle. Teleport plus AOE disable = win.

Ive also found that the Kodiaks "intercept" ability can play heavily into the hands of a subverter laden fleet. This is because when they use "intercept" they all tend to bunch up in one small area next to the target (kodiaks dont take up as much real estate as other HC's either). As such the the AOE is HIGHLY effective against them. Ive had the AI disable like 30 of my Kodiaks with 3 or 4 subverters. Not cool.

Subverters should be your #1 target...always.

Innociv has opened discussion on nerfing them a bit and I agree that they are a little OP. Not sure the best solution though. Maybe just a doubled cool down rate and slightly higher supply cost.

subverters are insanely powerful. there's really only one counter to them: spread the heck out! you'll have to micromanage your ships to prevent them from clumping (which is their natural behavior, since clumps are the most efficient at focus firing). if your fleet is spread apart a subverter warp bubble can only disable 2 or 3 ships at most and its no big deal, the subverter itself is a sitting duck after it jumps. if on the other hand you leave your whole fleet in a big cluster, it only takes 3 subverters working together to keep it on permanent lockdown.

moral of the story: SPREAD OUT SPREAD OUT SPREAD OUT. your life depends on it.

This man, or woman, is correct.

Spread out, and micro-manage. That is the correct key to defeating subverters. Will it make your own fleet somewhat less efficient? Yes, but that is the point. No ship or tactic in this game can completely neutralize another ship 100%. Why? Because this game is far more than a simple game of Ro-Sham-Bo. I am quite glad for that... For far too long have RTS games been dominated by that simplistic childhood logic.

Subverters are not OP. They are, however, difficult to manage. If your game is running into that high of a tech tier, you will need to have increased your personal skill level from that which was suitable for destroying Skirmishers and level 2 Cap-Ships.

I have bolded certain entries in the quotation to highligh key points of wisdom for the benefit of those readers who just don't get it.

You are given a choice of formation densities for a good reason.

All capital ships are immune to cruiser abilities, AFAIK.

I was afraid innociv would find this thread.

Nope. The Assailant and Transporter are both better than their equivalents. The Assailant doesn't have much more DPS compared to the Javelis, but it had Phase Missiles to make up for that and is tougher. The Transporter uses equal supply to it's counterparts and has better strike craft. The Vasari heavy cruiser, the Skarovas Enforcer, is in fact offensively worse than the Destra Crusader when both are fully upgraded.

Of course, the Vasari eventually make up for this problem with Phasic Transmissions - the extra 16% supply nullifying the bigger supply requirements of their ships.



350 before upgrades. Vasari get the same upgrades as Advent(+30% antimatter, +30% recharge rate).



They can still be bombed. Bombers can't be disabled either, can they?

Innociv, if you mean they can't spread out because they need to stay in range of the auras and shield regen from their cap ships I understand your point. I think what it comes down to is that you need to make a choice about how you deal with the Subverters (which have to be the first thing to die). You can spread out, greatly reducing your fleet's effectiveness until the subverters are dead but still retaining at least some of your ability. Or you can stay in the clump and try to tank it with shield regen from Mothership until your cap ships and bomber squadrons finish off the subverters.

One of these two options is better than the other. I'm not sure which is best though, but certainly the Subverter is a highly troublesome ship for the Advent to try to deal with.

In the case of the other two races spreading out is certainly the best option in my experience. The Vasari in particular are good at spreading out, its easier to do when you have somewhat fewer ships in your fleet. TEC can do it too pretty easily but it probably requires a couple more mouse clicks. Neither tec nor Vasari are especially obligated to stay within range of auras are buffs from their cap ships though so your fleet effectiveness doesn't drop by very much by spreading out, the only thing you lose is some of your focus fire ability. Losing optimal focus fire is bad but it can be dealt with and you don't have spread out TOO much, so really only a few ships will be totally out of range of their weapons. I think it works just fine if you can micro it correctly.

I'm one of the best at micro in this game..

yeah but.. they suck. It's not like a vasari player is going to have subverters without sentinels which instakill advent squadrans

For the love of god, stop nerfing Vasari.

They're already borderline unplayable as is.

A double nerf to RA and Subverters would take them out of the game completely.

Returning Armada is more of a mind rape than anything else. It's really not all that... great. It helps, but it's nothing too spectacular. It's a pain in the ass, it can surprise you, and it's a solid ability - yes, but it's nothing too "uber". It's fine how it is currently implemented, imo. Hell, I don't even bother taking it until almost everything else is already had. It's not needed.

The Kostura Cannon? Now there's a piece of shit. It's damage component seems negligible, and it's disabling effect is very short duration. It's only saving grace is that it doesn't affect friendly ships. But still, it's not worth the cost and time when you have Subverters handy to do essentially the same job - at least as far as I am concerned. If someone has some praise for the Kostura, by all means, share it... I hope this thing is somehow better than I've found it to be.

And someone having good micro, is never an excuse to nerf something. You do not punish people for being skillful! The auto-cast for those things is pretty stupid. Which prevents it from being OP for the general masses who probably don't micro them intensively. And for those who do? Quit whining about it, and counter them with your own micro. This isn't something game breakingly OP - something you cant counter... it's something that you just haven't gotten the hang of fighting against - yet.

I personally hate being focus-fired upon by multiple Kols using their max-upgraded rail gun to pop things like water balloons. Is it OP? Nope. Just something I haven't gotten skilled at stopping yet. See my point?

My opinion on Vasari economy is coming around from it's former negative stance. It's not quite that bad, really... in games where you have atleast 4 other factions. In those games the blackmarket is used enough where you can still work it, and come out strong. Now, in smaller games with less factions? No... in those cases, the Vasari economy is somewhat broken. One problem is, if no one uses the Black Market, they are screwed on any size game - that is however, very unlikely to happen (although a low incidence of usage on a small game hurts). The other problem is, if you change their eco to work properly in smaller games, it might well make them OP in larger games.

I'm really not quite sure what can be done at this point... My only thought would be to reduce the costs of Vasari ships somewhat. As it stands, they are quite damned expensive when compared to eveyone else. Even the scouts take 20 metal. The price on Skirmishers is downright absurd for what they give you - especially in the early stages of the game when they are your main option!

They can. But if you're going carrier-heavy, the Stilakus Subverters are not your main problem. Fighters operating from Lasurak Transporters maul Advent Bombers, and Junsurak Sentinels are good too.

If the Vasari are wielding Tier 7 Warfare technology, it is inevitable that their Skarovas Enforcers will be armed with Inertial Fields. Once they catch the kiting Drone Hosts, there is no escape.

Unless there are Iconus Guardians on sight. AFAIK, Repulsion out-ranges Distortion Field, so as long as the Guardians hold out, the Subverters are kept at bay. The unwanted side effect is that your Crusaders can't shoot without leaving the protection of the Repulsion ability, and in doing this, they get hit by Distortion Field and fall silent. Illuminators have the range, but not the firepower, and capital ships aren't affected by the Subverters anyway.



Each ship is also damned more powerful than each individual enemy ship.

The Jikara Navigator costs an extra 25 credits and 25 metal because it has the ability to capture neutral extractors, which pour in resources faster than normal asteroids, and well justify the extra investment. On a map without neutral extractors, the Navigator is just plain worse.