On forum etiquette, complaints, and suggestions

It's no secret that since the game's release the forums have been filled with more hostility, both towards Stardock/Ironclad and fellow posters, than probably any of us would like. Some of this is to be expected from the nature of internet forums, but it doesn't have to be the case - especially if everyone actually wants to be heard.

I've been around these forums for a long time. I've posted a lot, read a lot, and learned a lot - so I figured I could post what I've learned in hopes (though likely naive :P) that the forums can get more civil and cleaned up without the need for heavy moderation.

Firstly,

Etiquette/Complaints:

This applies mostly to posts/threads addressing "officials" from the two companies involved with the game. What many folks may not realize is that, really, these are not faceless companies that pay PR reps to filter the forums so they hear only what they want. These are companies whose "higher ups" and developers personally visit the forums and read/talk with the community.

But if the community wants to be treated with respect, and get answers to questions or comments, we should likewise treat Stardock/Ironclad with the same respect. Snide remarks, sarcasm, outright hostility towards the developers and forum moderators won't get us anything other than their unwillingness to participate in community discussions any longer.

We have to realize that not that many people have been directly involved in the game's creation. Just take a look at the credits - Ironclad is a very small independent company, and only a part of Stardock was involved in the game's design. There are no PR reps, we're talking directly with the people who've sunk years into making this game. They don't *have* to visit the forums and talk to us, but they want to and it's something we should be able to feel good about because it just doesn't happen with most other companies. But if all they see is "whining" about the same thing over and over, if they see hostility towards them or people deliberatly posting lies or demands, can we really expect them to continue to interact with us?

Of course, as customers we all want to be heard, especially when we have complaints. But questioning Ironclad's honesty, hard work, or posting things like "This sucks" or "This is broken" hurts much more than it helps and instead of being heard it ends up being ignored. Remember that these are just normal people like all of us, and I doubt that if you worked on a product for years you'd get much enjoyment from reading a swarm of "This sucks" threads every day - most of them about the same thing.

So then, how do we make ourselves heard and voice our complaints such that the powers that be aren't instantly turned off? This leads into the next topic:

Suggestions:

Usually, when folks have a complaint because they don't like how something works, and if it's a valid complaint, they should also have some idea of how they'd like it work, right?

Let's take everyone's favorite topic of AI, for example. We get to read posts which can be simply summarized as "1.03 AI sucks more than 1.02", without containing any other real substance. But how does this help anyone? All it is is just trashing, it doesn't accomplish anything productive.

Instead of posting "This sucks", why not instead post your idea of how you'd like it to be? We did this all the time in beta, and I still do it, especially when it comes to AI. "AI is a coward and runs too much" doesn't tell Ironclad much to work it as far as improvements. But on the other hand, if you post a replay, and describe it as "Well, at this time you can clearly see that the AI fleet is more superior to mine, and should be able to defeat me but instead it runs away. I think the AI should account for external variables less when it has numeric superiority so it stays and finishes the job more often" is infinitely more useful because now Ironclad has something to work with. They can look at the replay, and understand why you're suggesting what you are.

The same goes for everything else - the market, siege frigates, long range frigates, whatever. Take your pick. If instead of posting simply that they're "broken" or the patch sucks, or the numerous other uninformative posts that we've all seen, everyone instead posted ideas and rationalle for how to improve them, it would not only help Ironclad understand the community, but make them happier to work with us and help them tailor future updates based on our feedback.

 

In conclusion, again, try to understand that these forums allow for something that most do not - the direct interaction with developers. All of us have inner nerds that cry out in joy when we see a dev post in our threads and address our comments, ideas, or concerns. But in order for them to do that, all we need to do is cut out the hostility, sarcasm, and insults and focus on unbiased suggestions. Bashing a game mechanic or change doesn't create anything productive and adds no value to a post. But posting a rational suggestion to modify the mechanic will do wonders for everyone.

47,377 views 50 replies
Reply #1 Top

I totally agree. I don't like to say it, but it seems recently there are a group of people that come here just to cause trouble, with no suggestions on how things should be. Then they get suprised when everyone on the SINS FORUM doesn't want to hear there bashing about SINS.

We may be fans of the game, we may have different opinions, but enough abuse, offer something constructive.
Reply #2 Top
Good post and suggestions Annatar. I'm "new" here, so from an outsider, a lot of what I read (while looking for helpful insight) sounds very strange. "I am the best...I hate this AND that...Sins is my whole life and yet I say it sucks...".

I think from just a gamers standpoint that the game is incredible, yes there can be changes to make it better, easier...But I have yet to play a game that couldn't. I also have yet to play a game where sooo many people are dogging it, and the minutia they are complaining about and HOW they complain would make you think SD or IC intentionally missed or built in your specific complaint.

Annatar is on point with the small amount of people (comparatively speaking) who built a game we must care/enjoy very much, because we are constantly looking through forums etc...if it was that bad, I am sure I would just move on.

The guys whole must play every waking moment: Please keep letting the developers know the bugs/breaks/market problems...Lets just start being more constructive (A nod to those who are experts/full timers, who DO help us with their great post of info/excel spreadsheet etc etc...)
Reply #3 Top
Just as bad is people who don't know how to play the game making suggestions..

"omgs i dunno how 2 ecoz make resources double plz"

Not at all understanding how that's going to effect the people that DO know how to eco.
Reply #4 Top
True, but, it doesn't take much to realize a completely unrealistic suggestion from a valid/plausible one :P
Reply #5 Top
Small excerpt from the very mature & noble OP (no sarcasm intended) :

(though [it is] likely naive) [to think] that the forums can get more civil and cleaned up without the need for heavy moderation.
End of quote








Reply #6 Top
re: "On forum etiquette, complaints, and suggestions"

in a disastrous twist, the sins forums are discovered by denizens of teh intarwubs! abandon all hope!

(i do agree with your sentiments annatar11. everyone should try to be civil and strive to keep criticism constructive, but realistically in many cases this isn't going to happen)

To any devs out there: Sins is the only strategic space game that's been able to capture my attention since MoO2 days - cheers to you folks for going out on a limb and creating something a little different - and congratulations on the critical and commercial success. Looking forward to the upcoming patches.
Reply #7 Top
One thing slightly off-topic I'd like to add - there is no 'freedom of speech' here. If you get banned or censored, something which they are hesitant to do without good reason, you have no right to fair trial. This forum, sins IRC, and ICO are all privately owned and operated. Free speech does not apply to privately owned forums/assemblies.

This isn't a problem if your posts are thoughtful/constructive/respectful. However, if you love playing "Mr. Anonymous Jackass Online (tm)", know that they can and very well may ban you at either the IP level or the CD-key level.
Reply #8 Top
A great post Annatar - and one that deserves a reading by those career-minded folk who may just be getting home from work :)

And the post titles of OMG WTF LOL ROFL OMFG just really make most people NOT read them. Keep it less LEET please.
Reply #9 Top
Ok... forgive me, but...


+ Eleventy Billion!!!!

Seriously, this hits the nail right on the head.

Half the reason I followed this game from concept to publishing is because I'm such a huge Stardock fan. By education I'm a mainframe programmer who took up game programming as a hobby back in the DOS days.. usually trying to make games like this for my friends until I got my hands on Moo2.

GalCiv II was my first experience with them, and I went so far as to buy a complete separate copy of Dark Avatar because I wanted to support them so badly. I raved about the AI in GalCiv to my friends until they got it too actually. Never had I seen the likes of it, plus the support for the game was/is phenomenal.

So when this hit the market, I ran out and grabbed it ASAP.

It's sad how the nature of forums on the internet means mostly negative things are posted, as usually people who are content or happy don't bother so much.

I'm really happy with the game. I've kept mostly quiet when the trolls attack, but I think for the developers sake I won't be doing that any longer.

So, in advance please forgive me for fighting back. I'll be civil, but the devs deserve to have their happy community members come and stick up for them. Sure, I'm sure things will mature with patches, I have absolute faith and I'm just not worried. Just can't stomach the negativity any more from players who maybe shouldn't judge so quickly (and sometimes on info that's not even accurate I noticed) when we're to patch 1.03 at this point.

Reply #10 Top
I usually don't do this, but in light of Blair and Craig posting a few things today, I'd like it to get un-lost for a little while longer.  ;p 
Reply #11 Top
damn to bad we cant all just get along, to bad there is always going to be people who belive they are in the right when they are clearly mistaken oh and dont let me forget all thoose stupid people who cant recognize a development team who works their ass off to please its many fans
Reply #12 Top
Annatar11, a most beautiful and cultured statement. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this, even if the people it targets ignores it. I certainly support your statements.

In particular, I like your comment stating that Ironclad is a very small independent company. So many people these days, when they think of huge games, big hits, and overall awesome games, they think of the mega corps like EA, SquareEnix, Sierra, and so on. But Ironclad is not one of them, nor is it a partially or wholly owned subsidiary of a mega corp. It's independent and very small. I didn't look at the credits myself, not closely, but I very much doubt there will be more then a hundred different names, with many positions taken up by the same person. I read in Wiki that EA has something like seven thousand employee's, not including subsidiaries. It's also a multi billion dollar corporation who can afford to put 600+ people on a single game, and have something like 20 games being made simulaneously, with 200-1,000 people and tens of millions of dollars in each (which they do regularly). Ironclad isn't even close. With the limited people and resources they can divert for patching and expansions, they can only work so fast. We can't forget that game developers are human too, and need rest. So seriously, people need to stop complaining so much and be more constructive. With how exhausting this work is, I'm sure they'd be happy to pull time and resources from source patching, if they find people don't appreciate their efforts. After all, why should they, if it isn't worth it?

So thanks again, Annatar11.
Reply #13 Top

Thanks guys, thanks Annatar. Great post.

I won't get into it in full detail but the forums are at a crux and today things are going to start changing as the community as a whole is suffering and Sins is suffering. I don't know why the vibe changed and I don't know when but the halycon days of the past are gone. I'll be talking a lot more about it off and on over the next bit but here is stage one of some new changes coming in.

JinxOfSin is right, there is technically no freedom of speech here. Up until now you may have thought there was and I was proud of how open and tolerant we were but now its working against us all. In order to keep as much of the freedom of speech ideal we have a new model. You can create a thread on your major ideas/beefs/complaints/etc or multiple threads per topic and debate it to your heart's content but if you start spreading it around to other threads in a manner we find unconstructive/annoying/trollish/off topic we'll take whatever action we find appropriate (e.g lock thread, delete posts etc).

Edit: Solaron, we are 9 people. You can understand why its very resource intensive for us to filter through all the posts to find the meaningful posts that will actually help ensure Sins move in a better direction. The virus like unconstructive posts are causing a flurry of repetitive debate that masks the other problems and shifts the direction of other valid threads. We need to get that info efficiently and quickly in order to implement and test the changes as quickly as possible. This benefits us all.

Reply #14 Top
Odd... I thought this place was pretty tame compared to my usual haunts. Clearly, I've spent too much time around GameFAQ's.

Ah well. If changes must be made, I just hope you guys won't go all GUcomics on us.
Reply #15 Top
 

:CONGRAT:  Blair!
Reply #16 Top
Edit: Solaron, we are 9 people. You can understand why its very resource intensive for us to filter through all the posts to find the meaningful posts that will actually help ensure Sins move in a better direction. The virus like unconstructive posts are causing a flurry of repetitive debate that masks the other problems and shifts the direction of other valid threads. We need to get that info efficiently and quickly in order to implement and test the changes as quickly as possible. This benefits us all.
End of quote


Phew, yeah. I knew you guys were a small group, but I hadn't realized it was that small. So, I will reweigh my comment, and state that it is VERY imperitive that we, as customers and consumers stop b_ing & m_ing so much and actually do something constructive to help.

Bleh, and I thought being an Admin or Mod (of maybe half a dozen to a dozen) of solo forums with several hundred members and thousands of posts was tough. But after exposure to these game dedicated forums (like EA's C&C boards, WiC boards, and such), I can exponentially calulate the difficulties you guys face. So, I Salute You! Hope you are willing to put up with this even more, and hope this environment becomes less hostile for you guys.
Reply #17 Top
Here's a question: How much help is it for all of these myriad threads popping up that do nothing but offer vague, general praise of SD and Sins? Doesn't that also add to the singal-to-noise ratio?
Reply #18 Top
Here's a question: How much help is it for all of these myriad threads popping up that do nothing but offer vague, general praise of SD and Sins? Doesn't that also add to the singal-to-noise ratio?
End of quote


Since the principle purpose of this site is to advertise the game, those thread qualify as "signal."
Reply #19 Top
Efexeye, I can agree that those can be a waste sometimes, although, when you get down to it, anything that improves the morale and quality of work of Blair and friends (who see praise as a sign that people love and want more of SoaSE) must be a good thing.
Reply #20 Top
Great suggestions Annatar, and with luck ones more people will take to heart.

I'm still impressed Stardock takes the time to visit the forums and interact with the community and listen to our input. The only other compnay I can remember giving that kind of commitment to quality was Kerberos, the producers of Swords of The Stars.

When you see the devs take a personal interest in seeing their game improved and expanded upon in each patch based off of quality community feed back (unlike EA does X-( ) you know the game is going to be one you'll be playing for months to come.

A suggestion to help you gals and guys and Star Dock with moderating is to perhaps appoint some of the community members that have established themselves as mature and level headed people to act as co-moderators of the forums. This would lessen your work load and let you focus more on reading/replying to threads of interest and less on babysitting the forums. (The Relic forums and a few others do this to good effect)
Reply #21 Top
A suggestion to help you gals and guys and Star Dock with moderating is to perhaps appoint some of the community members that have established themselves as mature and level headed people to act as co-moderators of the forums. This would lessen your work load and let you focus more on reading/replying to threads of interest and less on babysitting the forums.
End of quote


Great suggestion, Silveressa !

I nominate Annatar11 as candidate to be a full-power Moderator :

To represent the community of the SINS forum-users, and to « lessen [the Ironclad/Stardock] work load ».

Reply #22 Top
Hehheh, lol, Silveressa :p I was thinking about that as well, and have tried to work my posts in that way ;) Got my ambitions to consider :p

I've taken part in supporting game forum moderators (although I haven't had the opportunity to be one before) and know that having volunteer co-mods helps maintain order far better then just having a few people already busy with their main jobs. So it's certainly something I'd support, whether directly or indirectly.

And ditto with Sorceresss' nomination. I second it!
Reply #23 Top
Actually, I would be happy to debate the effectiveness of some of the moderators at the Relic forums. When they released their patch to CoH which added DRM (made you have the disc in the drive), I went to the forums to say something about it, and was promptly reported and a moderator temporarily banned me. I was livid, explained how I was in fact a paying customer and not some pirate just trying to swindle Relic, and when I said I'd be reporting the issue to Relic, the moderator in question swiftly gave me my access back. And apologized for misunderstanding what I was talking about.

This is what happens when one isn't careful with who is given power. Over at those forums they were just nuts about warning or banning anyone who talked about DRM and piracy. One of the things I like about these forums is that Stardock and Ironclad don't force talk of this nature to the back room. I want to see this continue, so any moderators that are "hired" have to be people that can truly moderate in the way that Stardock and Ironclad want them too. Otherwise, they run the risk of alienating people who are here for the right reasons.

-HM
Reply #24 Top
This is what happens when one isn't careful with who is given power. Over at those forums they were just nuts about warning or banning anyone who talked about DRM and piracy. One of the things I like about these forums is that Stardock and Ironclad don't force talk of this nature to the back room. I want to see this continue, so any moderators that are "hired" have to be people that can truly moderate in the way that Stardock and Ironclad want them too. Otherwise, they run the risk of alienating people who are here for the right reasons.
End of quote


Which is why I don't think these forums are ready (or really in need) of additional moderators just for the sake of enforcing rules. Nobody needs to be a moderator (volunteer or not) to take the time to answer people's questions or try to help them. The additional ability to lock/delete posts isn't necessary to be actively helping the community and I really hope these forums don't degenerate into the need to have additional "rules enforcing" mods.
Reply #25 Top
Which is why I don't think these forums are ready (or really in need) of additional moderators just for the sake of enforcing rules. Nobody needs to be a moderator (volunteer or not) to take the time to answer people's questions or try to help them. The additional ability to lock/delete posts isn't necessary to be actively helping the community and I really hope these forums don't degenerate into the need to have additional "rules enforcing" mods.
End of quote




 :CONGRAT:  Amen!