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Sins Units = Warcraft 3 Units

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Sins Units = Warcraft 3 Units

from Sins Forums
I don't know if anyone had brought this up in previous threads, but it's worth mentioning. The units and abilities in Sins are almost directly parallel to those in WC3. This fact took away a lot of the novelty of the game for me. Keep in mind I've spent years playing WC3 and know everything about the game. These "coincidental" similarities were apparent to me only hours after playing. Take a look:

Scout: Peon, Peasant, Acolyte, Wisp. Used for scouting and colonizing (Vasari). Weak damage and HP. No research required for training.

Basic Assault: Grunt, Archer, Footman, Ghoul. Basic, weak fighting unit. Immediately trainable and upgradable to be moderately useful in mid-late game.

Long Range: Huntress, Rifleman, Headhunter, Crypt Fiend. Next buildable unit, requires limited research. Generally stronger than basic assult (although headhunters are quite weak in wc3). Are often massed in Sins as in wc3.

Planet Bomber: Mortar Team, Ballista, Demolisher, Meat Wagon. Used for buildings (planets). Requires limited research, (moderate research in wc3). Extremely vulnerable to all units. High food cost.

Support: Priest, Banshee, Druid of the Talon/Fairie Dragon, Witch Doctor. Weak physical attack, rarely massed, battle changing abilities. 2-3 abilities. Require moderate research to train, extensive research for max potential. Fairly vulnerable (with the exception of guardian with is the equivilent of a Spirit Breaker). Highly buff/debuff oriented. First of two utility units.

Disable/Repair: Sorceress, Shaman, Necromancer, Dryad. Again, weak physical attack (Dryad has moderate attack damage), game-breaking abilities, 2-3 abilities, buff/debuff oriented. Similar to support.

Heavy Assault: Knight, Tauren, Abomination, Druid of the Claw. Strongest unit in both games, excluding air. Not quite a necessity, but very useful in most situations. High HP and a useful spell to add to it. Extensive research required and small numbers can destroy large armies of units they are effective against. Once researched, training cost isn't THAT much higher than other units.

Capital Ships: 4 heroes per race in wc3 with 4 ablities each. One ultimate ability obtainable in level 6 (hmm)... Max ability level is level 3.

This isn't a coincidence, Sins unit structure almost undoubtedly immitates that of wc3 because, one can assume, of wc3's nearly flawless balancing scheme. Sure, there are parallels in almost all games, but this one is strikingly bold. Some units are left out and not every unit or building has a counter-part, but for those of you who get livid when reading about people trashing Sins for "stealing" their content from other games should think twice before trying to convince themselves that Sins is 100% originality.

I love the game, I love the community, and I will continue to play it for a long time to come. Flame on.






89,589 views 61 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
In hindsight, maybe my topic was rooted in ignorance, but most of these destructive, sarcastic responses are completely unwarranted, and quite frankly, those of you who made the comments are snide assholes. I became excited when I saw the correlation between the games, and having never played many other games, I thought the connection was for the most part exclusive. I was expecting some constructive responses to this post, but instead I was patronized by e-bullies.

Shame on you all for ruining and downplaying these observations of mine which I thought were unique and interesting. I didn't make the topic expecting this. I made it hoping people would experience the same "ah ha!" feeling I felt. It's always been beyond me how anyone can so easily disregard the feeling and needs of other and possess such an innate desire to crush someone's spirits. Hardly any of you brats had anything good to say, unbelievable.

I love the game, I love the community, and I will continue to play it for a long time to come. Flame on.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
My brain just had a Sargasm I think. Now I need some aspirin.
SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
In hindsight, maybe my topic was rooted in ignorance, but most of these destructive, sarcastic responses are completely unwarranted, and quite frankly, those of you who made the comments are snide assholes. I became excited when I saw the correlation between the games, and having never played many other games, I thought the connection was for the most part exclusive. I was expecting some constructive responses to this post, but instead I was patronized by e-bullies.

Shame on you all for ruining and downplaying these observations of mine which I thought were unique and interesting. I didn't make the topic expecting this. I made it hoping people would experience the same "ah ha!" feeling I felt. It's always been beyond me how anyone can so easily disregard the feeling and needs of other and possess such an innate desire to crush someone's spirits. Hardly any of you brats had anything good to say, unbelievable.
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I laughed at the sarcasm, but this is correct. We should be ashamed of ourselves (I certainly am). Besides, he did say he loved the game.

But, though you shouldn't tailor your posts to cater for sarcasm, I must admit it wasn't exactly clear to me how you regarded these similarities - but that's just me.
Back off him, guys!
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
Whiterabbit007 had it perfect. Absolutely exquisite. Be careful of going too far, though - sarcastically making fun of something stated in sarcasm is novel but tired, IMO.Whoops! Hijack!
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Personally, I think he didn't go far enough -- one could legitimitly question whether it was sarcastic. The ending is what pushes it over -- the first part didn't hit it hard enough.

In hindsight, maybe my topic was rooted in ignorance, but most of these destructive, sarcastic responses are completely unwarranted, and quite frankly, those of you who made the comments are snide assholes. I became excited when I saw the correlation between the games, and having never played many other games, I thought the connection was for the most part exclusive. I was expecting some constructive responses to this post, but instead I was patronized by e-bullies.Shame on you all for ruining and downplaying these observations of mine which I thought were unique and interesting. I didn't make the topic expecting this. I made it hoping people would experience the same "ah ha!" feeling I felt. It's always been beyond me how anyone can so easily disregard the feeling and needs of other and possess such an innate desire to crush someone's spirits. Hardly any of you brats had anything good to say, unbelievable.I love the game, I love the community, and I will continue to play it for a long time to come. Flame on.
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Ricker, we've had so many trolls that the entire forum is in the process of a backlash against anything that even looks like trolling against sins. You got caught up in it because, quite frankly, your post was something a (relatively mild) troll might right. The fact that you honestly didn't realize how inflammatory and misleading you were was... incidental. It came off "feeling" trollish, and thats enough these days.
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
right
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Don't you mean "write"?
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
In hindsight, maybe my topic was rooted in ignorance, but most of these destructive, sarcastic responses are completely unwarranted, and quite frankly, those of you who made the comments are snide assholes.
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I think the responses were pretty tame for sarcasm.

It's always been beyond me how anyone can so easily disregard the feeling and needs of other and possess such an innate desire to crush someone's spirits.
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Wow.
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
This is why children who think video games were invented in 2005 piss me off.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
The OP states his point clearly and supports it with relevant evidence. After reading what he has to say, I have to admit that there's certainly some parallelism between the two games.

Not really sure why people are throwing the BS flag without subsequently citing their own counter-evidence to disprove him. It seems like the main opposition is to the fact that he made this post in the first place -- not to the examples he used to support it.

OP, interesting point. I didn't really like WC3, personally though. Very slow, and I thought the hero units ruined the balance that I'd come to love so much in Blizz's work with Star Craft. Strangely though, the formula seems to appeal to me more in SINS than it did in WC3. I guess slow, methodical gameplay is more suited to space combat than ground combat. *shrug*

For what it's worth though, I feel that your initial analysis was fair.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
The OP states his point clearly and supports it with relevant evidence. After reading what he has to say, I have to admit that there's certainly some parallelism between the two games.
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Our point was that his parallelism is, at best, a stretch. And by stretching that far, there isn't a single RTS game out there you couldn't connect in a similar manner.

The only place where he has a point is the way capitol abilities are set up.
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
I just don't understand why everyone's grabbing torches and pitchforks over something that is only "at best, a stretch." The OP's post is not egregious or inflammatory. It doesn't accuse the developers of intellectual plagiarism or copyright infringement. The man's just saying that the similarities he sees between the two games took away some of SINS' novelty to him. Comments like:

This is why children who think video games were invented in 2005 piss me off.
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Are way more trollish than anything I saw in the original post. I mean, God help the OP for propounding an unpopular opinion... :NOTSURE:
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
I just don't understand why everyone's grabbing torches and pitchforks over something that is only "at best, a stretch."
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Habit? We've had too many flamewars going on around here, people are getting upset.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
lol, I salute your honesty. :)

Here, have a kitty.

Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
Hey, I didn't say it was reasonable -- it just is. I do try to control that tendency in myself, problem is its a perception thing. We see the same BS so often that we see it everywhere.

Well, at least I do try, even if I fail... often.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
You can only build one of each hero in WCII. If you don't get how different the game is from that, then whatever. I'll say this. The game is massive in scale. It plays like a turn based game. Do you have city structures to defend in WCII? No. But you do in Civilization IV.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
Do you have city structures to defend in WCII?
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Well, you've got base structures in WC3, but, as has been stated on this post (to death), so do other games.
But then the OP was pointing out similarities that he saw - I personally disagree with him, but he wasn't at all inflammatory, unlike some radioactive isotopes I could name :P
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
if you think about it closely, almost all RTS have many parts which are nearly the same... it doesn't matter if it is a sword man or a rifle man or a tank or a space ship...
you get some light but versatile fighting units and as you develop in the game you get better and more advanced units, and it ist often that you get units with longer range and kind of siege units or even special units like heroes... and it is very similar with buildings... THIS SYSTEM IS WHAT MADE RTS SO SUCCESFULL!!!  :SURPRISED:  think about it...

this fits to most RTS i can think about...
C&C 1 - ..., WC I-III, all Civ variations, Dune, Dawn of War, Metalfatigue, Sword of the Stars,....

as stated above there are some examples which use another approach like majestic or perimeter...
but none of them were very successfull...

i like sins and will be playing it for a long time... Espacially with all the nice already and beeing made mods :)
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
for the most part exclusive. I was expecting some constructive responses to this post, but instead I was patronized by e-bullies.

Shame on you all for ruining and downplaying these observations of mine which I thought were unique and interesting. I didn't make the topic expecting this. I made it hoping people would experience the same "ah ha!" feeling I felt. It's always been beyond me how anyone can so easily disregard the feeling and needs of other and possess such an innate desire to crush someone's spirits. Hardly any of you brats had anything good to say, unbelievable.
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I really don't agree with your intial post, but you've got one thing straight, though: many of the guys in this forum somehow believe they are the peak of human intelligence and unless they regard you as of a being of sufficient intelligence (which basically means that they agree with your opinion), they will keep shrieking and throwing faeces at you like a bunch of monkies in a zoo.

It really became too hostile in here to post anything without getting lambasted with oh-so-intelligent "sarcasm".
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
There are similarities, but you're trying too hard. First of all, wc3 units are by far more diverse than SoaSE units. If you think Crypt Fiend and Huntress belong in the same category, you haven't played the game much. Secondly, SoaSE's carriers are conspicuously absent from your overview, and here's why: they don't have an analogue in wc3. Next, wc3 has an unforgiven tech race. Once your enemy goes to tier 3, you pretty much HAVE to go tier 3 as well. As far as I can tell, this isn't quite the case in SoaSE: heavy assault can be countered by carriers with bombers, which I consider tier 2.

The hero system *is* very very similar though, even with a few directly copied abilities (mana burn, metamorphosis, the alchemist's faster attack speed skill etc).
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
Hahaha! Good stuff, people. OP, your post was a little flamey and it was met with some good ol' fashion sarcasm. I'm still giggling.

As has been pointed out several times already, all RTS games borrow a little from each other. WC3 is a great game so it should be expected that certain elements will make their way into later incarnations of the RTS genre. Think of it as flattery for a great game.

"Imitation Is The Best Form Of Flattery" -- Charles Caleb Colton
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
… and all of them have the same principles and Ideas. How else would you create a RTS? Actually, there are other ways, but none of them have been particularly commercially successful. Perimeter, for example, is pretty much the icon for “No, really, you can do it differently!” RTS design, but there have certainly been other entries like Majesty, Darwinia and even Treasure Planet: Battle at Procyon (the last of which I used to play an unseemly amount of because it was fun). There are a multitude of new, different, exciting ways to build, manage and explore the ludic space of RTSs. The market just won’t bear them. That said, Sins experimentation with the tried and true market formulas of both the RTS and 4x genres is fan-frickin’-tastic and if they’ve carried on a few of the genre signposts so that they can get traction when they’ve gone off the road, I’m hardly going to call them out for it. Summary version: The OP may be a dink and a reprobate, but … well, no, really, there’s no but. He’s just wrong. But there are certainly other RTS approaches to be had.
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Hey, i'm still playng Battle at Procyon and i finally found another player,
this is a really great game and i want to make a Sins mod using the ship models of this game
so
Any idea on how to export this models?
Is there anyone for a multiplayer in Battle at Procyon

P.S.
This great game is the work of the creators of Homeworld Cataclism
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
In hindsight, maybe my topic was rooted in ignorance, but most of these destructive, sarcastic responses are completely unwarranted, and quite frankly, those of you who made the comments are snide assholes. I became excited when I saw the correlation between the games, and having never played many other games, I thought the connection was for the most part exclusive. I was expecting some constructive responses to this post, but instead I was patronized by e-bullies.Shame on you all for ruining and downplaying these observations of mine which I thought were unique and interesting. I didn't make the topic expecting this. I made it hoping people would experience the same "ah ha!" feeling I felt. It's always been beyond me how anyone can so easily disregard the feeling and needs of other and possess such an innate desire to crush someone's spirits. Hardly any of you brats had anything good to say, unbelievable.I love the game, I love the community, and I will continue to play it for a long time to come. Flame on.
End of quote


I don't know if anyone had brought this up in previous threads, but it's worth mentioning. The units and abilities in Sins are almost directly parallel to those in WC3. This fact took away a lot of the novelty of the game for me. Keep in mind I've spent years playing WC3 and know everything about the game. These "coincidental" similarities were apparent to me only hours after playing.
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what's the deal here? were you excited by the correlations or did the parallels take away the novelty?
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top

Hey, i’m still playng Battle at Procyon and i finally found another player,this is a really great game and i want to make a Sins mod using the ship models of this gamesoAny idea on how to export this models?Is there anyone for a multiplayer in Battle at ProcyonP.S.This great game is the work of the creators of Homeworld Cataclism
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I’m not sure it’s possible to actually export the models from Procyon, which is mildly sad because a Sins version of those factions would be deeply amusing. The Age of Sail / Pirates of Dark Water hybrid look leads one to giggle in a brief personal moment of illicit joy.

Of course, there’s plenty of room to expand outwards since there are far fewer ships (with more customizability) but that’s a modelling/mechanics problem more than anything. Though … hmmm, I wonder what Sins with a simplified ship set designed explicitly to appeal to kids or folks looking for a simpler game of sorts would be like.

Ironically, there’s a possibility that someone that worked on Procyon is working on Sins. Let us hope they stumble over these posts and have a popping moment of “Wow!” today.


Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
BTW, what unit in Sins would be related to the brand new Tauren Marine thats bridging the Starcraft and Warcraft universes?