Vasari Research Order?

Hey Guys,

Fairly new to the game(played a few games vs AI and one with a friend online) and I've been using Vasari.  I've been playing around with a few methods for build orders etc and actively reading this forum as well.  I've found general build orders for structures, ships etc but I'm wondering what people use for a build order for research?  I know the Vasari can have a bit of trouble getting economy going in the early game so I try to get trade post and refinery research ASAP.  Do you guys focus on population and economy research right away and if so, which ones usually take priority?  I've been trying to stick to the economy research first thing with maybe the exception of putting the one point in millitary to gain access to the LRM(can't remember the name off the top of my head).  Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

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Reply #1 Top
First, you need at least two empire(civics)labs, in your home system, so you can get Arctic Occupation or/and Volcanic Occupation, when needed, as they allow you to colonize those type of worlds. This allow you to gain resources faster, instead of waiting for them on one of limmited slots on most asteroids. Form there you can(and should) build based on how you play the game. But I found that getting the Wreckage Auto0Salvage as fast as you can, will help you out alot. Also I would get the Resource Sublimation and the Entanglement filtering on top of that, at the very least.
Reply #2 Top
As Aristotle once taught Alexander the great: Every situation is different.

It is possible to get no civic labs at all if and only if you can acquire 5 planets without the civic tech research. I still manage to have the #1 economy in a lot of these games. The economic (civic) research actually doesn't net you much of a boom to your economy... maybe 10-20%. Whereas, increasing your population caps on your planets and building more mines nets you much more percentage wise until you have around 5 or 6 planets.

Now, of course, if you're building 2 civic labs anyway you might as well upgrade a couple of the things there. I usually get the phase lane warning research and the 2 upgrades to terran pop cap first since they're cheap and well... you get 80% of your credit income from your home world which is, well, a terran planet.

I typically don't get more than 2 civic labs until I have 4-6 planets. When you only have 3 planets, it's much more worth while to capture another planet than to get trade posts. Trade posts are very expensive and take 5+ minutes to make up for their cost, and even then only when your planets are relatively spread out.

My advice: You're playing vasari. Against human players you need to be getting a ton of assailants or sentinels early (Otherwise other assailant / lrm / even drone host armadas will steam role you). Focus on getting a lot of planets and a lot of ships as early as possible. Upgrade to the max planet population capacity as soon as possible on every planet you take. This is what makes your economy improve. Negative credit income from undeveloped planets is the reason why most players have shitty economies (upgrade this as soon as you take the planet, no later).

Once you have a reprieve from the fight (ie: your opponent has a larger fleet than you so its not worth attacking or you are teching or you are playing a large game and have an extra 5 minutes to waist making no ships) Make an extra few civic labs and upgrade to trade ports. Upgrade the culture building and build one by your home planet to get it to 110% loyalty (that'll more than make up for the cost of one of these buildings). Secondly, build trade ports starting with your planets furthest away from eachother (that'll maximize your trade income while youre still building other trade ports).

Once you have those things upgrade the first tier of crystal/metal extractor rate things.

After all that you should have a sufficient economy to go for dark fleet or tech up heavy cruisers / whatever you need.

Remember: always have a large enough fleet to repel any attack.. too often players get their asses kicked because they go for an "econo boom" strategy. This is the hardest type of strategy to use effectively because you need a huge investment to make it worth while. My advice: just keep a large fleet and build up economy later.

Vasari are not any worse than advent or even tec as far as trade ports / culture labs. The tec can get these things earlier, but you don't want to make an investment in trade posts this early anyway or you'll be steam rolled (At least, I would steam roll you in even a medium sized map). Now, very late game the vasari do have a slight disadvantage in that they don't have rediculous trade upgrades like the tec do, but you have dark fleet! go dark fleet if the game is lasting that long!

So a build order:
1 Millitary Lab
Assailant Prototype
Pop Civic Upgrades on All Acquired Planets ASAP

If you need to take ice/volcanic planets to get 5 worlds:
2 Civic Labs
Planet Req Research for Ice/Volcanic
Terran Planet Cap Upgrades
Phase Space Monitoring

Get a ton of assailants and attack (keep you opponent on the defensive if you want to win)
other ways to win: just get 5 planets then go for an "econo-boom" strategy if and only if you see your opponent is not intending to attack. Otherwise you'd better attack. After econo boom (ie: making trade ports at all planets) go for millitary labs and get heavy cruisers. In my oppinion this is only worth it if your opponent has a ton of defense vessels / flak frigates / sentinels.

I am an aggressive player and attacking >>>>> defending.
At the very least you need to raid your opponent.

In a game where once you lose your fleet you lose the game, the idea is to destroy your opponents fleet.. Focusing on anything else will result in losing your own.
Reply #3 Top
Nice post @ italia559
I play Vasari also this way and it works fine. First military than economy.
Here is a list of what I think is important to research on the first 3 tiers.

Warfare:

1. Assailant Prototype: It's the main part of the fleet...most important
2. Skeletal Reinforcement (+ following): Vasari ships have many hull points, so hull improvement means a big advantage...first point brings +36 hull for an assailant, that are 2 shots of an enemys LMR.
3. Regeneration Bay: Supports defence a lot no matter if structure or ship.
4. Phase Miniaturisation (+ following): First points only have a small effect but nice damage push on higher tiers

The rest is optional and depends on if you need it in this game.

Empire:

1. Vulcanic/Arctic Occupation: Depends on the planets either essential or worthless
2. Recource sublimation (+ following): Vasari economy is build on recources...most important
3. Orbital Processing: Gives you more Recources...sell them if you need money. No need for Trade Ports on small/medium maps.
4. Full Terran Lockdown: More Population, more income

The rest should be optional. This are only the most essential researches for early/mid-game, later on you should research further. There is no fixed order you have to research, think about what's most important in your actual game situation.
Reply #4 Top
On an interesting side note, last night while trying to get the Vasari civilian research achievement, I noticed that Dark Armada calls in ships that you haven't researched yet...

This got me thinking - has anyone tried a strategy of trying to get to dark armada as quick as possible without touching the military tech tree? I doubt it would work in multiplayer games, but maybe versus the ai?
Reply #5 Top
People have tried it with a lot of success on multiplayer actually.

It's pretty unbalanced, especially on larger maps when the other players don't even have the chance to stop it, but its incredibly risky on small 1v1s and even some medium sized 2v2s etc. If the dark fleet "rusher" gets rushed then they lose. period.

Now, conversely it does unballance the vasari because late game vasari players will win once they get it... In practice, however, games rarely get to that stage when skilled players are driving the game. Skilled players tend to have large fleets very early and so players are only able to research the dark fleet once the game has progressed past the "critical" point: when the game is decided. Only in large multi-system maps or ffas is the returning armada ability dominant.
Reply #6 Top
This is the RO that I've been using for a while, giving me a nice balance between econ, ship upgrades and fleet.

1 military lab
research assailants
2 civil labs
research volc/ice development if needed
research both crystal/metal income upgrades
research both full terran lockdown upgrades as soon as my home populaton reaches 280*

In between each of these upgrades I build kanraks, 2-4 to support cap on 2nd colonisation, depending on how many rats are there and then maxing initial fleet cap usually when I've finished the above research but it depends on how close conflict is.

Once I've done all that I research the first fleet upgrade and while that's researching upgrade phase missiles and ship health twice. I then build a few more kanraks.

If conflict is close or happening then I'll build two military labs and start pumping out either sentinels or carriers while continuing to build assailants. If I'm not going to be fighting for a little while I'll continue building kanraks and get a 3rd civilian lab and research the next two versions of the crystal/metal income upgrade and both of the reduced structure/ship credit upgrades. If conflict is REALLY far away then I'll get a 4th civil lab and build trade ports.

* Since the black market changes I find its always best to upgrade civilian infastructure on your homeplanet strait away.


Apart from that try to be expanding all the time and always develop planets at the very least until you get rid of the undevelopment costs.
Reply #7 Top
carnun you are right on the money.

That is the basic research order.

Note: Research order is conditional upon proximity to opponents and upon whether acquiring any ice/volcanic worlds is necessary at all.

Also note: Making the extra military labs is optional, but if you really want to be very competitive against very skilled players at least 2 labs is required so that you can make sentinels once you engage your enemy if and only if they have javelis lrms, assailants, or illuminators.

Final note: In the general case, if you do not need extra orbital labs (ie: you will not be needing to make sentinels or you will not be needing to acquire ice/volcanic worlds), it is generally best to focus on making a huge fleet first. The military upgrades don't matter until you get into combat and so its generally better to build ships and then later make upgrades for them. Also, full terran lock down is awesome but doesn't make up for the cost of a research lab and the upgrade costs for a long time. On small maps, if you really want to win, the idea is simple:

Do not get any skirmishers.
Get a Cap ship and a mitigator.
Get a military lab.
Upgrade Kanrak Assailant Prototype
Take First Asteroid.
Upgrade First Asteroid pop limit.
Get Mines at first Asteroid.
Start Making Kanrak Assailants; continue to produce them whenever you have spare
resources and are not saving for a planet cap upgrade for a new planet.

Take more asteroids and planets; if civic upgrades are necessary to take planets,
then get the civic labs and also upgrade full terran lockdown.