First impressions of Sins

from Sins Forums
I just finished a game of Sins in the demo, and there were quite a few things that made me feel like I was playing a game I already owned, namely Starcraft.  There were just so many similarities between the two that I noticed.

First, both are played in real time.  Units, upgrades, and reseach topics all require a certain amount of resources and time to prepare in both games, and while the player improves his or her empire, others are busy doing the same.  This isn't a very meaningful point on its own, I admit, but it's still important.

Second, both games have the same type of units.  Frigates have short or long range attacks, and so do marines and firebats; zerglings and hydralisks; and zealots and dragoons.  There are siege frigates which specialize in planet busting and (if I remember right, destroying structures).  The similar tasks are done with siege tanks, firebats, and guardians.  There's a scout frigate class, and in Starcraft there are vultures, satellite detection, observers, brood queens (especially with parasite) and (arguably) overlords.  Capital ships are critical and gain experience points in battle which improve their abilities and gives them new ones, just like avatars in Warcraft 3.  There are also construction frigates which stay with their buildings like peons in Warcraft 3 and SCVs in Starcraft.

Research and upgrades funtion the same way in all three games.  Build a certain structure, spend resources, and in a couple minutes it will be finished.  Sometimes upgrades and research topics will require something else like an upgraded command center, hive, nexus, or planet, and they all do similar things.  Some topics improve attack or defense for certain units, others unlock new units or structures, and still others make it easier to operate efficiently.

Combat involves outproducing the enemies.  Zerg rushes are not impossible in Sins, and I was able to deal a telling blow against an enemy faction straight away with the starting fleet after a couple jumps.  Micromanagement exists in Sins wherein one pulls out individual frigates when they are damaged while the others fire on the enemies.  In all three games unit placement is important before commencing an assault, so the short range attack units lead while the long range attack units follow and the avatar or capital ship is surrounded or hangs in the rear (unless it specializes in close combat like the death knight or paladin).  Effective turret placement doesn't need a rocket scientist, and like in Starcraft, a good defense involves saturating the enemy attackers with turret fire.  Sins just makes unit placement and task force organization a lot easier, but I don't see any innovation in combat.

Now this is just based on one game I played in the demo, but the demo didn't convince me that it was a fresh gaming experience worth spending my gas money on.  I just don't see anything unique about the game except for colonization and jumping.
9,074 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
eevry rts game ive seen so far uses the exact same points as youve said.....with mayby a few things not added or some stuff added to make the game that bit different.....thats what youve got to expect in an rts :)(real time strategy)
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
You've pretty much listed off the basic RTS ruleset of just shy of every RTS made (of which I can assure you Starcraft is not the first by any stretch of the imagination). The only really fair point is the capital leveling system, which is quite close to Warcraft 3's.

Though I can't say the post doesn't feel like it's sarcastic. Notably the fact you said "First, both are played in real time." There are two and a half choices when time is involved: Real Time, Turn Based, and the awkward/confusing system of simultaneous turns which technically still falls under Turn Based. Are the devs supposed to create some type of new method of time? Should they have found a way to make your computer generate wormholes so you could experience new levels of time?
WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
I like how it's assumed that I think that Starcraft is the first RTS game I ever played because I compared Sins to it. The earliest RTS game I played was Dune, as far as I can remember. Starcraft was used because I'm sure that most people on the forum were likely born in the early 90s and Starcraft was the best example that that generation of gamers could identify with. Not that Starcraft or Sins are "strategy" games anyway (they're played at the operational level and sometimes at the tactical level).

My point in the thread is that Sins is not the unique and innovative RTS game meant to redefine the genre that it's billed to be. There's nothing new, unique, or interesting about Sins, and I'm sure the full version doesn't change this.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
And you're completely wrong. There are few things new : the diplomacy system, the shield mitigation, the fighters, the zoom level, the phase lanes, the experimental structures, the cultural and economical network, colony ships...
It's not because Sins uses some features of the RTS genre to be more accessible that this is a bad and uninspired game. That's a silly point of view.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I'm not completely wrong. Think about it:

Taxation and trade are just two ways of acquiring the third resource (credits), and broadcast stations improve allegiance which improves tax income and makes planets a little more stable. Colonies provide access to more crystal, metal, and credits, just like building new command centers, hives, and nexii near new resource nodes do. Strike garrisons are just another type of defense turret with a big range, and carriers are carriers.

Phase lanes are just a means of getting to places in a hurry. It just changes how battles are fought; battles aren't fought anywhere on the map, just at planets, stars, asteroids, and cosmic phenomena (unless in the full version there's a way to knock ships out of hyperdrive). Zooming is similar to a mini-map, but designed to accommodate the planetary system maps and get around the full map faster.

I do concede that diplomacy and piracy are indeed new and interesting, but it just doesn't carry the game.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
My point in the thread is that Sins is not the unique and innovative RTS game meant to redefine the genre that it's billed to be.
End of quote


While I can understand (and agree, to an extent) with this point, based on the reviews and information about the game, what exactly were you expecting? As was said, all of the similarities you highlighted are at least loosely tied to every RTS I've ever played. This one's just a quality title that incorporates a much larger-than-normal scale with a few other quirks like the piracy and culture and such (culture has more effects than simply boosting taxes, by the way).

It's different because there's 'more' of a focus on the non-combat aspects of empire-building than your average RTS and while those non-combat features are simplistic compared to actual turn-based games, they're still quite a bit more involved than Starcraft (at least, when you play on a map that's bigger than something like Point Blank).
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Bah... bloody forum.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Fine, Larowyn - what would "carry the game," if Sins' innovations don't? I agree with each of Karryle's points, and I don't agree with your analogies that address his arguments. Name a structure in Starcraft that provides the analog of Sins' culture mechanic. I, certainly, can't find one.

"Strike garrisons are just another type of defense turret with a big range, and carriers are carriers," you say, but the "big range" aspect of the experimental structures - let alone their diverging effects - just goes to show how different the game is from Starcraft. Sins is about scale - about actions that affect entities at large distances as much as it's about worrying about managing fleet production and battles.

For each argument where you say the words "are just," you diminish your argument. "Taxation and trade are just two ways of acquiring the third resource," "Phase lanes are just a means of getting to places in a hurry." In these examples, you are unintentionally revealing that Starcraft is not a proper analogy for this game.

Now, if you want to convince me to listen to your arguments further, stop groping for similarities that you see between the games, and start suggesting what you would think would improve it. That sort of dialog is useful - this sort is just flaming.

Ben
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Larowyn, may I humbly suggest that if you are seeking a "fresh gaming experience" (in this genre) that you search Google for "eve-online". I'm sure you'll get all of the new "experience" you can handle.  :HOT: 

Balderdasher
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I played a random map game last night. [ Full version not a demo.  :CONGRAT: ]

I really don't have many space sims so I thought this would be a well needed change of pace. [never played star craft/ war craft] I did play I think it was Homeworld or something like that many years ago.

With that said this is leaps and bounds better than Homeworld. I never actually finished that game as I could never do what I wanted to do and once you play RTS you never go back to turn / script based.

I basically compare this to AOE [age of empires] except this would be the space version of such... there are alot of simularities... hidden maps [random generated], gather resources and protect yourself until the mighty finish if you can withlast that long.

AOE is more or less 2D on a 3D plane and this comes as close to 3D without actually being 3D IMHO. To be 3D you have ships on top of one another firing underneath and above themselves etc. It does a good job of "fooling" you into thinking it's 3D.

As far as differences from other games you're always going to have the same vehicle classes so I really don't look at differences to what makes a game better or not, but playability is a big factor. This game is very immersive. If you hate to spend what feels like an hour in a game only to find out it's been 6 hours then this game is not for you. It will kill more time so fast you could never imagine... very much like AOE.

The benefit to RTS is you don't just go through a scripted game in which you're battered by countless bad guys because you simply hit a spawn point in the game... and once you get past the spawn point the bad guys magically go away for awhile til you hit the next spawn point..... many games out there are like this COD4, Doom, Quake, Half-Life etc.

RTS is more like a chess game, where as script is a twitch shoot em up. If you can't play the game like a chess match, wit against wit then you probably won't like it as much. Anyway that's my take on it.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
This is a joke thread... right?