Cap:Frigate ratio; Why build small ships at all?

I usually just build as many capital ships as I can while ignoring frigates altogether (Save for colony frigates, of course.) until I can get heavy cruisers. A properly micromanaged capital ship can kill twenty times its value before even dipping to 2000 HP.

Once I've got full capitals and my research tree mostly finished, I get all of my fleet supply done and then spam assault cruisers and support cruisers.

Don't take my word, though. I mostly just play singleplayer, so I doubt I'd have a valid opinion VS Humans.

All ships regenerate for free.

Smaller ships are more maneuverable, they can follow your retreating capships. Oh, and every race has some way to stop you from warping.


lastly, you will get your ass handed to you on a silver platter if you try to spam capships.

Fielding a very heavy capital fleet can seem like a good idea, but it is just very vulnerable to a variety of tactics and ultimately isn't as effective as smaller ships.

Most notably, Capitals, for their price are not swimming in hit points, and their damage per second they put out compared to an equal cost in smaller ships is usually significantly less (which most Capitals cannot even concentrate because not all of their weapons are forward mounted). It's not until they gain veterancy through battle that they begin to really shine, but without a fleet to help them get there, they won't have to worry about living that long. Direct combat, bang for your buck, the little ships are usually much more efficient. Sure, you'll loose some even with good support, but you'll kill far more of the enemy.

Ultimately the Capitals are support ships. They do specific roles for a fleet, either giving advantages to nearby friendlies, disrupting the abilities of nearby enemies, or even the Battleships just taking damage (2,000 hit points lost to a Capital results in no dps loss to your fleet, if they focus fired on individual frigates in that time they would have reduced your hitting power). You should balance a fleet with that in mind, not what the little ships can do to help your Capitals, but what your Capitals can do to help your little ships.

You can get away with most (or even an all) Capital fleet against the AI, usually because it does not fully utilize LRMs early (premier Capital killers early game, a lone capital or a pair doesn't stand a chance against an early swarm of the buggers) or later in the game focus fire on the right units. The AI's affinity for ignoring Repair Platforms also favors a heavy capital strategy, since just one Capital sitting in a cluster of Repair Platforms is a almost a fortress unto itself. Against a person though you can expect any fleet of all Capitals to be destroyed before a fourth capital is in the game.

I like using frigates because of their versatility, and most of all because of their speed. If there's a battle going on that I need forces at, and I've stupidly not left any ships near the area, a small fleet of frigates will get there faster than a capital ship fleet. They may not turn the tide of battle, but they can at least delay the enemy until the bulk of my forces arrive, and if I do things correctly take out a sizable chunk of the enemy while they're there.

There's also the issue of weapons ranges. Long range frigates can do a lot of damage to other ships since it takes time for those other ships to get into firing range, and this includes most capital ships. Yes, carriers and carrier cruisers have their complement of fighters and bombers, but a significant number of long range frigates supported by anti-fighter frigates can do a lot of damage.

I'm no expert, but I like using fleets of frigates and cruisers to harass the enemy. These fleets act as skirmishers; they jump somewhere, do their damage, and jump out before a large enemy fleet arrives. On the other hand, I like using my capital ships supported by cruisers and frigates (essentially elements of my main fleet) defensively, or when the chance appears, to expand and take a planet. So while my smaller, faster fleets of frigates harass the enemy, my capital ships hang back to defend key locations, expand my empire when necessary, and engage in larger battles when much more firepower is necessary. Of course this is just a general rule; I like having capital ships on my front lines to gain experience and because sometimes having that sort of force out there can make a difference that a large group of frigates can't.

eh... the more capships, the less exp. each gets with each kill.
Only advent seem to be able to get away with the mostly capship fleet, because of resurrection, autoleveling to level 4, and 50% increase in exp gained. Even if you field a mostly capship fleet, I'd still recomend pumping in some auxships as needed (like flacks or carriers).
and if you spam capships, your going to have to get used to them dying, which always makes me cry (not so bad with resurrection)

This strategy will fail completely against a competent human player. Cap ships lose to an equal cost of frigates, and lose so badly the battle isn't even close. Cap ship research is also very expensive, and requires you to buy lots of fleet upgrades. Even if you're a micro god who somehow gets incredibly lucky and never loses a cap, you'll still lose every battle by being forced to run all your caps away.

still, I think the advent can make it happen, at least in large maps, you just have to get used to losing capships and resurrecting them, and you save money in the long run b/c you don't have to research larger fleets larger than 800.

You won't make it to a fleet of 800.

The only reason I build caps beyond the first is in order to siege planets, because they're so much better than seige frigates in this version.

So for me its Akkan, then multiple Marzas. (with crap loads of frigates)

I only built a cap-ship only fleet to get the Go Big or Go Home achievement

Do not do it for any other reason other than to get the achievement.....cap ships are slow as hell and you will get your ass handed to you by bombers and mass frigates. Worse if the enemy gets upgrades for their light frigates (sabotage reactor, steal antimatter, etc) your capital ships will not be long among the living. Also they can focus on using cap ships with focused anti-cap ship abilities (akkan, radiance, antorak) to really bone you.

Long story short you are putting all of your eggs into one basket and the basket is made of paper.

But anyway, back to the original topic . . . what about Heavy Cruisers? When I play the AI a fleet of Kodiaks usually takes care of business when supported by a few cap ships and carriers. But then again, I usually just throw LRMs in just for the heck of it (they come in handy against gauss turrents and stuff) and a bunch of light frigates just to absorb damage and draw away attackers.

I have no idea if that works against humans, either

Also the anti-strike craft frigate to defended against fighter attacks

yea I was going to say... even a decent fleet of cap ships will get owned without support. I actually tried it out with a few fleets... only a bunch of Vasari Vulkoras did decently and even they lost badly (the missile swarms killed a lot before I had to pull out).

If I need to kill lots of capitol ships I use Guardians and strike craft... or I just consume them with Illuminators. But I play a lot of Advent mostly because no one seems to like them. Illuminators will total capitol ships without blinking an eye due to their damage type. And a good sized bomber force will eat capitol ships alive. Both are fast so there is no real escaping them. You might want to build some flak or something... oh and something to kill the Illuminators.

The problem is the computer for all its decent AI and all that is still that... a computer. It is predictable. It doesn't adapt well. A human will see your fleet of capitol ships and build accordingly.

As to a proper ratio there really isn't one. You just build things as it looks like you need them. In a short game I usually don't have more than one or 2 caps. Some times in long games as Advent if I get a Progenitor high enough to get Resurrection I will start just building Capitol ships willy nilly and use them for all kinds of stuff like raiding and absorbing direct fire in a fleet because I can more or less get back the same ship with very little effort. It is the exception to the rule and I still don't have tons of cap ships I just get more careless how i use them. But don't take my word for it there are more experienced players around.

Oh and as to the heavy cruisers... if your going to spam a ship it might as well be them but generally you want to avoid ship spam and construct a more balanced fleet based on what your scouting indicates may be needed. Scout a lot. You won't regret it.

I abandoned the many caps idea long ago. I usually win games without even buying a second one. My rule of thumb now is that when one cap gets close to level 10, I might as well start another just for the fun of leveling it up. Or, one cap per fleet, if I need to fight on two fronts.

I do still entertain the idea of getting multiple Dunovs (those are the ones with the shield restore beam right?). It would be fun if you had 3+, and the shield restore at 1100 points per pop completely negated the enemy's focus firing advantage. It even works in a 360 degree arc, so they would never have to stop shooting to heal each other.

The simple answer to your question is because it's incredibly inefficient and slow.

The main point here is that you can do whatever you like against the AI because it sucks so bad. Yes, there is no reason NOT to do X strategy or Y strategy or Z strategy in a single player game where you are just doing said strategy to amuse yourself.

Try any of this "super build up" stuff against a human and the game will be over in 10 minutes.

I've observed that I loose the least amount of ships when I have a moderate-to-large fleet consisting of a few (2-6) capital ships, 10+ heavy cruisers, 4+ other cruisers, and a smattering (20+) of frigates (LRMs, Lights, Anti-fighter). Additionally I tend to field a large number of strike craft, I've found that they provide a great boost to my fleet. A well designed fleet should be able to perform a variety of functions in a variety of situations, CapShips have abilties that cruisers and frigates don't, and vice-versa.

I also tend to be economy-strong, and research-happy (I am in all RTS style games). This talent, if you will, tends to provide me with the resources to build the larger fleet sizes. Still to get the dream-fleet mentioned above it can take upwards of an hour of gameplay. There was a post about Capships only functioning as support ships, that is a good piece of wisdom as a CapShip cannot stand alone.

I play predominately as the TEC against 3+ 'Normal' AI opponents, so strength in my case comes from large, diverse fleets. As far as human opponents go, I try to avoid online gaming; it may add an extra challange to gameplay, but can also detract from the enjoyment of the game.

BTW: Although this is my first post I've been 'lurking' on the forums for a couple weeks now. I am impressed, this community has turned the game into a science/art form.

For multiplayer and SINGLE player I call the LRF blob the cap hunters. They can kick some serious tail. 8 ravastras 1 Evacuator 1 the missle destroyer vs 15 illum. I get down to 10 illum and he has lost everything but the evacuator and its on red. Illum have deceptive illusion.

One other point: a level 5 capital ship is easily twice as powerful as a level 1 - just have identical ones face off some time to see the difference. By building a huge capship fleet, you're really diluting any experience they're getting, and it makes it much harder to get them to those incredibly potent higher skill levels.

-- Retro

HC and caps are overrated. Can easily win a game without them

The only time I get more than two caps is if I'm winning and I want more for fun, or if I'm playing Advent. Except on very large maps where you're going to have multiple large fleets, you don't need more than two (three if Advent). I'd rather have two highly leveled caps than a swarm of poorly leveled ones. For TEC, two Dunovs in concert works well, as does a Dunov and a Kol, or Kol and Marza. On the occasion that I do get a third, it's usually a Sova decked out with interceptors to keep the bombers away from my caps.

Capitol ships mainly play a support role to the rest of the fleet. Either aiding in firepower, bombardment of enemy planets, draining shields ect. All those special skills that aid in destroying in the enemy fleet are useless without the aid of other ships. Every fleet should be primarily made up of frigates, cruisers and support ships. A fleet made up mostly of capitol ships is destined to be annihilated. In every game I've played where an enemy used this tac they've been destroyed.

However they have their pluses. I'm a TEC player and I find the Marza class invaluable. With three of these ships using their missile barrage attack with support of a fleet as a screening force and additional firepower I've succeeded in destroying fleets twice my size. TEC battleships are very effective for use as an anti-aircraft platform and additional firepower. It's how you use these ships in coordination with the rest of the fleet that determine your success and skill as a commander.

I love players like you. Yes please continue to overdo Cap ships and neglect building a proper fleet. I don't think I've ever seen it work against a decent player but if it works for you then everyone is happy

I usually build a fleet of capital ships first, then build heavy cruisers and light carriers to support them. Sometimes I will also get the flak frigates to support them, since they are the only ship other than fighters that can kill fighters. The heavy cruisers are pretty dangerous to smaller ships, and light carriers give a speed advantage, since capital ships and cruisers aren't the fastest ships whereas fighters can outrun anything.

However, I have never played against humans.