LRMS counter the wrong unit!

Why is it that LRMs counter my agile light frigates? That irritates me. In fact, light frigates should be good at taking out LRMS. LRMs should pick off support units. I hate that light frigates are made practically useless because they are a direct fighting unit countered by an even cheaper "direct fighting" unit.
13,618 views 26 replies
Reply #1 Top
I disagree with the design decision as well -- obsoleting the "primary" unit so quickly just doesn't make sense -- but its what we're stuck with.
Reply #2 Top
At least flak counters LRMs for some...bizarre reason. I understand the need for a counter, believe me I do, but Flaks seem like such an odd choice.

And also, I agree. The Light Frigates seem to be designed as the close range fighters for the early game, but they're literally made obsolete by T1 or T2 military tech (which in many games is literally just minutes). I think in an ideal situation there would be room for both the Light Frigates and the LRMs, with the LRMs providing support and the Light Frigates and Caps doing the brawling.

I assume the current balance was done so Light Frigates weren't the favored unit to rush with (require literally no research, after all), so LRMs are an effective hard counter. But LRMs also counter Capital Ships...and turrets...and basically everything except for Flak and Heavy Cruisers. So instead of the Light Frigate being the favored rush unit, it's the much more powerful LRM. Cure is worse than the disease, maybe.

Right now Light Frigates play fodder for a few minutes, then LRMs come to play and can scare off almost anything (including Caps). Until they're countered with Flak, which sometimes brings the Light Frigates back into play in order to kill the Flak.

So the way many games can scale is Light Frigates, LRMs, Flak, the back to Light Frigates. A strange circle.
Reply #3 Top
Maybe they should add a minimum range to those things. It'd prevent them from being a "direct fighting" unit and keep them at the support role that they're supposed to fulfill. But back on topic, I agree with everything that's been said above me.
Reply #4 Top
At least flak counters LRMs for some...bizarre reason. I understand the need for a counter, believe me I do, but Flaks seem like such an odd choice.
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Check the patch notes for 1.04 -- they released a preview thread. They've removed an exploit with regards to flak Vs. LRM, but they reduced the damage done as well.
Reply #5 Top
Here's the problem: for most races, the long range frigate is the first military frigate you CAN research (next to siege, which is not useful in combat). To have THAT counter something much further down the line (support) is pointless. It needs to counter the main unit type or else the research would be wasted in any fast paced game. Also, look at what else you have. You have specialized anti-fighter units, which are good against large groups of units, but from your "realistic" point of view I don't see them countering light combat frigates either--their ordinance will be optimized with a view to killing small, fast, lightly armored craft, and clearly the light combat frigates don't fit that description (just compare them visually to strikecraft). Then the next thing you have is carriers, so basically if LRM didn't counter light combat, you'd have to tech to carriers with fighters to counter them. This would make investing in research a very risky proposal.

To me it does make sense that long range counters light combat, even realistically. Light combat frigates are, as you say, agile and fast, with medium to low damage output. They might have been invented to fight off similar vessels or maybe even rebels in combat retrofitted trade vessels. Clearly they have a role lateron in quickly engaging support vessels as well. Once you get to LRMs, though, you have smaller, even more fragile vessels with a large damage output. If Sins was a much quicker game it would make sense for LRMs to destroy light combat at range and then be destroyed by them if they ever catch up (kind of like archers vs grunts in war3), but that's not the kind of game sins is. In Sins, combat does become somewhat static at a point, and so the decision was to either have lrm counter light combat or not. I think they made the right decision from a game balance point of view, and I can buy the decision from a realism point of view.
Reply #6 Top
Actually, don't forget that LRMs also counter (non hanger) defenses quite ably. Which, IMO, should be a large part of their role. Of course, bombers -- with thier bonus damage to buildings -- do this even better.
Reply #7 Top
To be honest, I don't really see the point in building defense guns (gauss, beam, missile) in multiplayer. With their small range it's so easy to go around them, draw the enemy out etc. Repair bays I find last quite a while to LRMs, especially if your fleet is there, picking off the lrms, and even more so if you have two repair bays that can repair each other. Hangars full of fighters of course rape lrms, as well they should.

You know I read a post somewhere else on these forums suggesting that siege frigates might be made more useful if their attack was much stronger vs buildings, and I like that idea, both from a "makes sense" point of view as well as from a game balance point of view. Limited trials locally against the AI suggest that this is indeed a fun use for siege, and maybe--just maybe--it could make them less than completely useless in multiplayer.
Reply #8 Top
IMO, the ideal counter for light frigates in the early game would be other light frigates. Numbers and tech upgrades would ultimately determine the winner in a fight between two fleets of light frigates. The other available combat effective frigates, the long range frigates and the flak/defense frigates would serve to support the light frigates against other technologies - buildings and larger ships for the long range frigates and fighters and bombers for the flak/defense frigates - and to a lesser extent other light frigates.

So, in any battle the bulk of the damage dealt would come from light frigates. Long range and flak/defense frigates would still contribute to battles but would be less effective than light frigates in combat against other light frigates (or other ships in general). Their effectiveness would appear when that fleet encounters larger ships, buildings, and fighters and bombers - things that the light frigates can't possibly handle alone.

But this is from a realism perspective, not a gameplay perspective.  :LOL: 
Reply #9 Top
I wouldn't lose any sleep if they removed siege from the game altogether. If I need to siege a planet down fast, I use a siege capital for a capital with a good anti planet ability (the evacuator's drain planet ability, for example, or the Marza's siege guns ability).
Reply #10 Top
To be honest, I don't really see the point in building defense guns (gauss, beam, missile) in multiplayer.
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Oh, they can be quite useful. Its very hard to kill a hangar supported by a repair bay unless you bring a lot of bombers, or take your main ships in close. And if you bring the main ships in close, the turrets start to take effect.

Which isn't to say they couldn't use some more ability to scale with the game... but thats another argument.
Reply #11 Top
OK, just pointing out, sabotage Antimatter core. they bring Light frigates back into the game. random DOT damage to any and all ships, it beats the hell out of Ignite anti matter which is good only targeting capitol ships.
the Key to TEC is really to have diversity, and model your fleet based on income ratios. If your literally dieing for a decent amount of crystal but have the metal to support it, you can pump Cobalts out pretty damn fast, In numbers cobalts have a fighting chance, until I get Kodiaks online I keep a brigade of Cobalts to help duke out some focus fire with my Kols.
Reply #12 Top
I don't see that much terribly wrong with flak killing LRMs. Think of it this way: You have what amounts to literally a honeycomb filled with high explosives. If you fire a torrent of ammo at it, no safety measure is going to keep you from hitting that sweet spot.
Reply #13 Top
I don't see that much terribly wrong with flak killing LRMs. Think of it this way: You have what amounts to literally a honeycomb filled with high explosives. If you fire a torrent of ammo at it, no safety measure is going to keep you from hitting that sweet spot.
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A nuke isn't going to detonate just because you blow it up, unlike chemical explosives. Antimatter warheads would work differently, of course.
Reply #14 Top
I wouldn't lose any sleep if they removed siege from the game altogether. If I need to siege a planet down fast, I use a siege capital for a capital with a good anti planet ability
End of quote


Well, siege frigates would be needed, even if you have an anti-planetary capital ship,
for supporting the bombardment. rushing in and bombing the enemy's planet is good - on small maps that don't take long to get across, but on large, sixty-planet maps, not to mention multi-people and multi-system maps, having one lone cap ship bombing a planet is not as effective as five siege frigates supporting it. Plus, Bombing a planet with one lone capital ship, even a dreadnaught with an anti-planet upgrade, would take awhile, and you can't get more than two cap ships that early in the game. with siege frigates, they are cheap and effective against planets. so if you are going to rush in and bombard a planet fast, bring some siege frigates as support.
Reply #15 Top
The issue with LRM is that they not only counter Light frigates, but that they counter nearly everything.
Reply #16 Top
Not exactly. LRMs have very low armor and hull points, and they aren't effective against close-range moving targets. I believe LRMs could be countered by a group of Cobalts by the frigates moving in close and circling them.
Reply #17 Top
The problem is that they are cheaper than cobalts and they kill cobalts 1 on 1. Why would I keep building cobalts when my long range weapon is cheaper and better? The unit you research second should not fill the role of making the fist unit obsolete, unless the second unit comes with a counter that can be researched simultaneously. For example, if I could build a missle scambler to go along with the huge fleet of light frigates that i otherwise have to scuttle, then it would be ok. as it is, you would probably be making a sounder investment to scuttle your cobalts once you see a lrm.
Reply #18 Top


not to mention that you have to build your own lrms to defend yourself, and that takes crystal. the next military research costs you a lot of crystal. and the research for carriers is a ton of crystal. and THEN the carriers themselves are a ton of crystal. so basically, the early game is one big lrm fest, and its stupid. lrms should counter the support cruisers. you can build them earlier to seige a planet's defenses, but that should be their sole role until something can counter them besides themselves.
Reply #19 Top
i only really play multi so don't take what i am saying into the context of 1v1.

i play visari and never use freighters except to counter flak (sometimes i even spam lrms for a min, then immediately start spamming freighters as soon as i see an human enemy). sieges are useless, usually if i don't have the firepower to easily clear a planet with caps, i just move to the next planet and continue the pwning after i have wiped all the structures from the planet, who cares if they rebuild them, 99% the annihilation of everything surrounding the planet is enough good times.

i will say that sometimes i will sometimes use a freighter heavy build if i find myself stuck in a corner with 2-3 volcanic planets/asteriods, and no ice. substitute t1 laser upgrades instead of the missle ones i use with the LRM build. the one nice thing when this happens is you can move to carriers in t3 and switch back to missle upgrades (much earlier than the tank heavy cruiser), since you don't have to worry about 20 flak ships shooting down all your planes. a good number of early bombers with cap ship support is usually enough steam to pick up some more crystal.

in a perfect world, i think sb...
freighters > turrets/lrms(via swarm)
lrms > heavy cruisers/caps/flak/turrets
flak > carriers (earliest heavy cruiser in order to make them slightly weaker than the other heavy cruisers)/freighters/hangers
sieges buff pls...
heavy cruisers/caps pwn the crap out of freighters/lrms/flak (even tho lrms can out dps with them with pure #'s)

i think this would really balance out the early game so that each ship is more useful

i don't really care so much at this point about which cruiser beats which, but t0-3 needs a lil work as is IMHO (still love the game tho)
Reply #20 Top
Freighters have weapons?
Reply #21 Top
Freighters have weapons?
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No, but some people don't have a clue!
Reply #23 Top
I don't see why we can't remove the whole Light Frigate counters LRM thing; LRMS already counter capital ships and buildings, which in turn are very effective against light frigates. They're also decent at countering utility ships, because utility ships don't have any damage dealing potential.

The big problem here is at Tier 2 about 30 minutes into the game, you have a ship that can pretty much counter anything you throw at it, and is capable of breaking through your defenses to deliver the final blow. Nothing can destroy them -before- they destroy vital amounts of infrastructure or a whole capital ship, so your only hope is to do as much damage as you do to them.

I've never heard of anyone losing an initial LRM blob without doing a substantial amount of damage to someone who didn't use the same tactic.

Reply #24 Top
I just made this post to create a place for all the people who keep posting that LRMs dominate. I am not sure exactly what the difference is (in terms of money) between LRMs vs. other ships.

For example, if I buy 10 light frigates, how much less do I have to spend in order to destroy them with LRMs.

How much less do I have to spend to destroy those LRMs with carriers?

How much do I have to spend to destroy lrms with capital ships?

How much to destroy them with heavy cruisers?

*combinations of ships are other spending strategies that could be evaluated.

I think that is the key to the balance issue. Because, ultimately, the game boils down to (1) who has more money and (2) who uses money for efficiently.

One thing I discovered is that spending money on turrets early game (before they have something to defend) is a waste. The computer always does this, and I wonder why? But that is a discussion for another post.
Reply #25 Top
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I think all they need to do to fix the problem is make long range do only 100% damage to light assault ships. This would be reasonable, as long range ships already do pretty significant damage to all other ship types.

This reduction of damage would make cobalts less vulnerable to long range ships and also allow for them to be used more in general to counter defense vessel / flak type ships.



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