TheGreatEmperor TheGreatEmperor

Expelled: Is Intelligent Design a Science?

▼

Expelled: Is Intelligent Design a Science?

A discussion of seriousness.

from Sins Forums

There has been a lot of movement lately to once again start teaching Intelligent Design in schools. Many mainstream educators think that science should be redifined as to what is logical, rather then what is actually true.

The media has played along to this in different forms. One of the forms was the new movie Expelled which show cases quite a few powerful points as to why Intelligent Dsign deserves to be taught in schools. Not only does it bring to light problems with the Theory of Evolution, including such evidence as its contribution to Nazism and Global Warming. This movie also shows that the theoy of Intelligent Desing is completly scientific and that it is only being excluded because it has religious support.

Now several school distrcits, states, and even universities have considered the inclusion of Intelligent Design in the classroom enviornment. This has spiked the concern of many that instead of being taught alongside evolution, it will be taught istead of it.

Religious background aside I wish to know the standpoint of the community. Keep it clean and relatively serious.

off-topic
801,399 views 467 replies
Reply #202 from Sins Forums Top
Now, I agree that religion should be nerfed in terms of importance - to me it's as important as someone's eye color. It really doesn't matter. It's a belief that can never be proven, and thinking too much about it, or wasting time fretting over it, is rather stupid.

And while I am a cynic of religion and believe China's stance on religion is headed towards the right track, I believe it is fatally...bad.

People should be able to practice whatever they want, without interference (given it conforms to governmental laws and regulations, and that it doesn't ask of anything that breaks the "universal morals," which I feel is determined by more education). Freedom is essential, but imposition of religion shouldn't be tolerated and should be barred by force if necessary. I hate moronic converters coming to my house to change my views. They need to leave and get a life.

And evolution is real. It has more proof than any religion, and is compatible with all religions. It IS a science.

- PR-0927
ObjectDock - Access shortcuts and frequently used applications from an animated dock.
Reply #203 from Sins Forums Top
"We are back to square one... who/what created the quark?"Who/what created God?
End of quote


I have stated that multiple times...
No one can answer that question. That is far back as anyone can go.
But to think that "what is here has always been here" requires no thought what-so-ever. That, to me, makes no sense. How can something be, without being designed and created? EVERYTHING that man has made had to be designed and created, no matter how simple it is. And NOTHING that man has created is as complex as human life, or plant life, rocks, water, air, etc. Man cannot create any of these. As one poster said.. man is close to creating life.. but they must use something created by something other than man... something already here. So they really aren't creating life at all. That is just plain stupid.

That question was never answered either..
Instead of asking me where God came from, why don't you ask that poster how man is creating life from scratch.. yet using stuff already found on earth.. stuff NOT created by man. That is NOT creating something from scratch.
Here is a joke I heard a long time ago, yet is is SO true, and fits this very claim of man creating life from scratch:

"The Scientist and God"

One day a group of scientists got together and
decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed
God.
So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him
that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God,
we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the
point that we can clone people and do many miraculous
things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man
and after the scientist was done talking, God said,
"Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man
making contest."

To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just
like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent
down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no.
You go get your own dirt!"

----------------
Maybe Ben Stein needs to make a sequel: "Evolution: No Intelligence Required"



Reply #204 from Sins Forums Top
Please answer my "Space Shuttle" analogy.
End of quote

Maybe you missed it, I did answer it in reply #196.
To add to it, appearance of design is not necessarily and indicator of such. Look at the aerodynamics of a raindrop. Of course, not understanding the physics behind surface tension and air friction, you'll probably say "God" designed raindrops that way.

Again, I cannot explain how God came to be. That is beyond anyone's comprehension. That is something that we will never be able to explain or comprehend. Some things we just have to accept.
End of quote


How is "God just is" simpler than "the universe just is"? We can observe the universe.
How is "God did it" simpler than "it happened"?

Just because we cannot understand something does not mean we will never be able to or that some incomprehensible entity is behind it. If this deity is so incomprehensible, how is it people like you claim to know so much about it?

You expect an explanation from science but not one from religion. I think you hold them to different standards yet think of them equally.


Lets for a moment say an intelligent designer did create that frog you spoke of. What does that buy us? How does knowing this benefit us? What does it predict about the world around us. This in no way would indicate there was only one intelligent designer, nor would it indicate that anything else was intelligently designed; and in no way would it prove or indicate the specific deity or deities you believe exist actually do. And even if it miraculously (pun intended) did, it would say nothing about their capabilities outside of this frog. The deity may very well be a frog deity, completely unassociated with the creation of the universe or origin of life. Perhaps this frog deity evolved from some sort of spirit-matter that follows laws of physics we do not yet know, and may actually be incapable of understanding with our feeble normal-matter brains. Maybe a shrimp deity masqueraded as a human deity to protect its creations from the humans who were eating them and the people it spoke to wrote a book about it.
Reply #205 from Sins Forums Top
Please answer my "Space Shuttle" analogy. My answer is that someone had to DESIGN and create the shuttle. It just didn't "evolve" from a bunch of parts laying around.
End of quote


Space Shuttles aren't alive... therefore they cannot undergo evolution. However, you could probably create a program to mimic evolution and "produce" a space shuttle like creation. Sorta like NASA's antenna here.
Reply #206 from Sins Forums Top
Carbon016
This is incorrect. Evolutionary theory predicts a number of things. For example, whales are really, really related to hippos. We validated this through molecular testing (DNA analysis) and lo and behold, later found fossils that linked the two orders. Evolutionary science makes tons of hypotheses. We can also observe evolution at work on the laboratory, as well as the moth example presented earlier. Evolution is not that slow of a process, really.
End of quote
Evolutionary theory also led us to believe birds evolved from dinosaurs, which is heavily disputed today by more recent fossils found. Evolutionary theory also says humans came from monkeys, but some scientists are adamant that we have more genetically in common with tigers, yes tigers, than with monkeys. Evolutionary theory also forbids the existence of dragons despite all dictionaries from the pre-1500's specifying them as 'very rare but still alive' and the countless stories of the same creature from people who had zero connection with each other. Finally, evolution has NEVER been observed anywhere at any time. No one has ever, ever observed real evolution of a species evolving a new trait, limb, organ, or something else. It simply has never happened at any time during recorded science or in any lab. In fact, things that we were once thought to be evolutionary discarded items, such as the human appendix, today are known to be fully functioning and useful (not necessarily needed for life) items, in this case for our bodies immune systems.

Evolution should be taught side by side with other theories, such as Intelligent Design. We don't know which is correct and we will never know until we die or come across some sort of entity that was there when our world originated. Also, who's to say that in reality it's not a combination of the two? We simply do not know the absolute truth, but somehow some beliefs, theories, and laws have become accepted as absolute truth even when there's a chance they could be wrong. Yes, so a theory works 99.9% of the time because our limited understanding of things. However, just because nobody has been able to make something move faster than light doesn't mean it's impossible to do so. Just because someone used a bunch of magnets to make a wheel that never stopped spinning doesn't mean it doesn't exist since thermodynamics and physics forbids it. Just because someone hasn't gone to the core of this planet doesn't mean we know what's down there. Just because someone hasn't been able to explore the majority of the oceans doesn't mean sailor tails and unknown oils of sea serpents aren't real. Just because nobody can see or pull out a little ghost-finding meter doesn't mean they're not really here. Just because we can't see things that are smaller than electrons doesn't mean they're not there and that things aren't infinitely small or infinitely large.

People attempt to rationalize things around them and define the unknown. What we come up with is a best guess how things are going to respond 99.9% of the time based on what our limited senses are able to observe. There are very few if any absolutes in this world. However, that little .1% chance that something may not behave in the predicted fashion or turn out to be that way is normally ignored. We should not be ignoring that tiny .1% and we should be teaching and promoting a variety of theories about something especially when it comes to our origins.
Reply #207 from Sins Forums Top
Who/what created God?


I have stated that multiple times...
No one can answer that question. That is far back as anyone can go.
End of quote


How can you claim to know the origins of the universe but not what created your "God"?


I'll post any more responses tomorrow, but I've gotta go now.
Reply #208 from Sins Forums Top
Please answer my "Space Shuttle" analogy. My answer is that someone had to DESIGN and create the shuttle. It just didn't "evolve" from a bunch of parts laying around.Space Shuttles aren't alive... therefore they cannot undergo evolution. However, you could probably create a program to mimic evolution and "produce" a space shuttle like creation. Sorta like NASA's antenna here.
End of quote


Thanks for making my point.. So if this scenario will NEVER happen to a machine, how could it possibly happen to a life?
Reply #209 from Sins Forums Top
Who/what created God?I have stated that multiple times...No one can answer that question. That is far back as anyone can go.How can you claim to know the origins of the universe but not what created your "God"?I'll post any more responses tomorrow, but I've gotta go now.
End of quote


How can YOU claim that it evolved, when you can't even answer the question "how did it begin in the first place?

You evolutionist have NO answers. At least I do. Believing in God as an Intelligent Designer takes far less faith than to believe there is no God.
Reply #210 from Sins Forums Top
Machines are not alive. They do not reproduce.

Life does. Therefore life undergoes evolution. Read cscoles post here about the change of allelic frequencies over time (evolution).
Reply #211 from Sins Forums Top
I seriously dont get why god and evolution MUST be mutually exclusive! Evolution doesnt deal with the aspect of god whatsoever. People decide that the two are at odds, the theory and science behind it has nothing to do with god. Science and religion should not be at odds with each other, it is the people that have taken them to odds with each other. Tell me something in the bible which specifically states that evolution cannot exist! SPECIFICALLY not the literal 7 day application. I dont exactly believe intelligent design, my beliefs are custom tooled.
Reply #212 from Sins Forums Top
Carbon016This is incorrect. Evolutionary theory predicts a number of things. For example, whales are really, really related to hippos. We validated this through molecular testing (DNA analysis) and lo and behold, later found fossils that linked the two orders. Evolutionary science makes tons of hypotheses. We can also observe evolution at work on the laboratory, as well as the moth example presented earlier. Evolution is not that slow of a process, really.Evolutionary theory also led us to believe birds evolved from dinosaurs, which is heavily disputed today by more recent fossils found. Evolutionary theory also says humans came from monkeys, but some scientists are adamant that we have more genetically in common with tigers, yes tigers, than with monkeys. Evolutionary theory also forbids the existence of dragons despite all dictionaries from the pre-1500's specifying them as 'very rare but still alive' and the countless stories of the same creature from people who had zero connection with each other. Finally, evolution has NEVER been observed anywhere at any time. No one has ever, ever observed real evolution of a species evolving a new trait, limb, organ, or something else. It simply has never happened at any time during recorded science or in any lab. In fact, things that we were once thought to be evolutionary discarded items, such as the human appendix, today are known to be fully functioning and useful (not necessarily needed for life) items, in this case for our bodies immune systems.Evolution should be taught side by side with other theories, such as Intelligent Design. We don't know which is correct and we will never know until we die or come across some sort of entity that was there when our world originated. Also, who's to say that in reality it's not a combination of the two? We simply do not know the absolute truth, but somehow some beliefs, theories, and laws have become accepted as absolute truth even when there's a chance they could be wrong. Yes, so a theory works 99.9% of the time because our limited understanding of things. However, just because nobody has been able to make something move faster than light doesn't mean it's impossible to do so. Just because someone used a bunch of magnets to make a wheel that never stopped spinning doesn't mean it doesn't exist since thermodynamics and physics forbids it. Just because someone hasn't gone to the core of this planet doesn't mean we know what's down there. Just because someone hasn't been able to explore the majority of the oceans doesn't mean sailor tails and unknown oils of sea serpents aren't real. Just because nobody can see or pull out a little ghost-finding meter doesn't mean they're not really here. Just because we can't see things that are smaller than electrons doesn't mean they're not there and that things aren't infinitely small or infinitely large.People attempt to rationalize things around them and define the unknown. What we come up with is a best guess how things are going to respond 99.9% of the time based on what our limited senses are able to observe. There are very few if any absolutes in this world. However, that little .1% chance that something may not behave in the predicted fashion or turn out to be that way is normally ignored. We should not be ignoring that tiny .1% and we should be teaching and promoting a variety of theories about something especially when it comes to our origins.
End of quote


THANK YOU! You have given the most intelligent answer. I don't agree totally with everything, but you make very valid points. An excellent post.
And I have always agreed that BOTH "theories" should be taught.. NOT just evolution. But creationism / intelligent design is not allowed because it recognises something greater than man and his FINITE knowledge. God is not allowed. Well, only the Christian view and definition of God is not allowed. Other religions are OK in school (aka Muslim)
Reply #213 from Sins Forums Top
I seriously dont get why god and evolution MUST be mutually exclusive! Evolution doesnt deal with the aspect of god whatsoever. People decide that the two are at odds, the theory and science behind it has nothing to do with god. Science and religion should not be at odds with each other, it is the people that have taken them to odds with each other. Tell me something in the bible which specifically states that evolution cannot exist! SPECIFICALLY not the literal 7 day application. I dont exactly believe intelligent design, my beliefs are custom tooled.
End of quote


The 1st book.. Genesis. It clearly states than God created Man and Woman. He didn't say He created a little amoeba that "evolved" into man. Man was always a man.
But of course, if you don't believe in the Bible, and that it is the literal Word of God, then this point is mute.

You are right.. evolution does not deal with the aspect of God at all. It completely denies the very existance of God.. therefore, the two subjects go hand in hand. One cannot believe in God and believe in evolution at the same time. One contradicts the other.



Reply #214 from Sins Forums Top
You are right.. evolution does not deal with the aspect of God at all. It completely denies the very existance of God.. therefore, the two subjects go hand in hand. One cannot believe in God and believe in evolution at the same time. One contradicts the other.
End of quote


False, I do!
Reply #215 from Sins Forums Top
Evolutionary theory also led us to believe birds evolved from dinosaurs
End of quote
Evolutionary theory also says humans came from monkeys
End of quote



No it doesn't, and no it doesn't. Read a book.

No one has ever, ever observed real evolution of a species evolving a new trait, limb, organ, or something else.
End of quote


Haha what? Traits are evolved all the time, and as for limbs and organs, mutations happen quite often *in humans* that cause people to grow extra limbs and organs. We don't let them persist into the gene pool, though.
Reply #216 from Sins Forums Top
Stop posting.
End of quote


So in other words.. you want me to shut up... to silence me, if you will... because I do not buy into your rediculous evolutionary beliefs. That is a typical response from liberals. I haven't once asked someone to stop posting on this subject. I didn't start this thread. I didn't post until several pages into this thread.

I feel like this has been an excellent exchange of ideas. I am in the minority, but that is OK. I don't mind at all. But as long as I live in America, I can... and WILL speak my opinion. I know that the libs want to silence folks like me, from speaking against their agenda... have you heard of the "Fairness Doctrine"?

Over my dead body. All the "Fairness Doctrine" libs can kiss my rear.

By the way, how did this thread get sidetracked in this direction? What does Sean Hannity have to do with this? You forgot about Rush, Glenn Beck, Levin, O'Reilly.
I am a faithful listener of all of them. I guess you are still ticked off that Air America went bankrupt.










Reply #217 from Sins Forums Top
No, it's my opinion that if people don't know what the hell they're talking about they should stop posting regardless of ideology or political beliefs. Troll harder.
Reply #218 from Sins Forums Top
Biblical literalists will believe what they want.

Evolutionary believers will believe what they want.

One side might be right, but do you honestly think anyone is going to change their stance based on a INTERNET FORUM? I'd give up if I were you.
Reply #219 from Sins Forums Top
No, it's my opinion that if people don't know what the hell they're talking about they should stop posting regardless of ideology or political beliefs. Troll harder.
End of quote


So why am I a troll? I stated my opinion. A few disagreed and responded. I responded back. It's call a conversation. People discussing a topic, giving thier input, listening to others, etc.

Don't like what I am saying? That's OK. Give a reponse. Don't tell me to shut up.

By the way... I STILL haven't gotten a response to the original question... the one that Ben Stein asked the professor.

To be honest, I was not expecting one. I was expecting the usual textbook response, which it pretty much all I have gotten. Talk about not being able to think on your own... SOME of these responses are just regurgitating the same ol' answers, without any thought as to what they are actually saying.

Reply #220 from Sins Forums Top
Biblical literalists will believe what they want.Evolutionary believers will believe what they want.One side might be right, but do you honestly think anyone is going to change their stance based on a INTERNET FORUM? I'd give up if I were you.
End of quote


I am having way too much fun.
 ;) 

Anybody want to start another MAC vs PC thread". That one seems to get heated as well!

Reply #221 from Sins Forums Top
well if this is the best "god or gods" can do,then i can understand why "god or gods" hiding from us.

OR

maybe we are just a big mistaken, like when daddy and mommy met on the first date, and they didnt use any protection :O

hehe maybe i am a bit too dark lol.

so we are all doom from the beginnig to the end... so let just enjoy this ride.

Reply #222 from Sins Forums Top
So why am I a troll? I stated my opinion.
End of quote


Your opinions are of the sort that you believe people in the 1400s generally believed the world was flat and that molecules can evolve. Or something. Not really worth arguing.
Reply #223 from Sins Forums Top
well if this is the best "god or gods" can do,then i can understand why "god or gods" hiding from us.
End of quote



No.. this is the best MAN can do. We are not God. Some claim to be, or claim they are better than God... some even think they will become a god (little "g" on purpose)... but all my posts have been written by a ME... a mere mortal.

He isn't hiding. He is just waiting for people to seek Him.
Reply #224 from Sins Forums Top
So why am I a troll? I stated my opinion. Your opinions are of the sort that you believe people in the 1400s generally believed the world was flat and that molecules can evolve. Or something. Not really worth arguing.
End of quote


I was just using that as an example.
We were taught in school that people in Columbus' time thought that the world was flat, and that they were afraid that he would fall off the earth if he sailed that far. It is believed by many, including myself, that this wasn't exactly the case, or the even the belief at the time. But it is still being taught, to this day (as far as I know) to be fact. Just another "truth" on a very long list, that many believe everything they are taught, without researching it themselves.

I have researched this topic (origin of life) and have come to the conclusion that the Biblical account is the truth. Others believe something else. I think both sides -- creationism & evolution -- require some sort of faith. Faith in God, faith in man, faith in -fill in the blank-.


Reply #225 from Sins Forums Top
He isn't hiding. He is just waiting for people to seek Him
End of quote


by "him" mean the all powerful "GOD", then what if he or she doesnt want to be found, so no matter where we will seek, we can never find this master of hide and seek, cuz he knows all the best hiding place. :)

as a personal note: we have already seeking him from the dawn of the human life, and i dont think we are winning. :(