Uhm, no, this is NOT America.

I live on the other side of the planet.

There is the freedom to speak, but you have to accept that if you say something irrational, illogical, and annoying, you're going to get rebuked for it.

Hm, and no other religions are silenced, eh? Heh, why don't you go find some Moselms in your country, and tell them that, and see how they react?

Oh yeah, and just for the record, from an external viewpoint, it really looks to me like the freedoms you so enjoy in the USA are being steadily eroded by your own government. So have fun.



HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol, I'm sorry, but the irony of that statement was just hilarious. From what I can see, religious people -- ESPECIALLY fundamentalist Christians from the United States -- expend far more effort and go to far more troule to proselytize and convince other people of their illogical ideas (such as intelligent design) than anyone else.

I don't know ANY atheists that do ridiculous things like going out, knocking on doors, and standing on street corners talking to people and trying to convince them that there is no god. I most CERTAINLY can't remember ever hearing about large numbers of atheists travelling to the other side of the planet in order to attempt to convert people to their beliefs (or lack thereof).

Seems to me that delusion and fear of being wrong drives people to astounding lengths to convince others and themselves that what they believe is true.

No, actually it probably started out as something similar to a kite or a simple aeroplane, and kept getting redesigned and rebuilt as technology improved, until eventually it "evolved" into the modern space shuttle.

Since obviously a space shuttle can't build itself, people had to do it.

However, your analogy is not compatible with the current argument, since (as someone else pointed out) you're talking about inanimate objects, not living organisms.

Of course, I suppose it really doesn't matter what anyone says, since no matter what anyone says, you will cling to your delusion like it was a life preserver in the middle of the ocean, and like most fundamentalists, be they Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, or Islamic fundamentalists, would probably rather die than think logically and even consdier the IDEA that you could be wrong.

I cannot read your responses anymore. Please understand evolution before you try to debunk it.

Forgiven,

Although I'm an atheist, I firmly believe in freedom of religion. You have every right to believe whatever you wish, as do I. It's when we start interacting with other people, when we start saying that our beliefs are the truth and everyone else should agree with us, that these arguments arise.

So, the question then isn't, "What do you believe?" but rather, "Why should I believe what you believe?" So I'll ask, why should I believe the Biblical account of genesis? You say that you've studied it and concluded that it's the truth (and that's fine for you) but why should I believe it? Could you please provide some evidence for it.

Wow, this must be a new record for these forums!!

This thread has nothing to with Sins, but it have already reached 10 pages in three days.

And people are so stupid. They invoke the right of freedom of speech, only to use it to attack the other person and tell him to shut up. It's so stupid.

Lets see if by next friday this thread has reached 30 pages.

well personally, i think thats funny. a large number of people or Atheists, telling another peoeple there are no god or gods. i think i would call that a religion(if everyone dont understand check the definition of religion.



whats the difference between a computer virus and organic virus? is it all about ones defintion of life form? and both can be make by us, so there is nothing to do with "god".

it might have something to do with sin, the TEC and Advent.

Intelligent Design is not a theory. Theories are logical explanations of a set of natural phenomenon, are able to predict occurrences or observations of the same kind, and can be tested by experimentation, e.g. the theory of evolution can be tested based on the fossil record. As new evidence or observations are determined, the theory can be retested to determine if it is strengthened or weakend. Intelligent Design cannot be tested in a similar manner - ID is based on faith - upon Creationism. While they both have their places in this world, Evolution belongs in places of worship as much as Intelligent Design belongs in schools. To teach ID in schools does disservice to the teaching of scientific theories and the definition of a theory itself.

I think this should be less of a religous matter and more of teaching a theory.

This is a very important issue to people in the United States. It must look like we're arguing whether or not the Earth is flat to other countries.

Lol

From what I've seen, atheists usually just respond to other people, rather than acutally going out to seek out other people and actively attempt to change their beliefs.

There's a difference between responding to someone, and actively going out and proselytising.

Oh, the definition of "religion" that I work from, is this one, or close to it:

re·li·gion /rɪˈlɪdʒən/
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.



Computer viruses and organic viruses are entirely different things that just have similar patterns of behaviour.

Oh, and from what I remember of my high-school biology, organic viruses aren't really considered "life."

I found Him. It was easy.

Please try to understand God before you try to debunk Him.

And why should I believe YOU? No one has yet answered that simple question... how did life begin? I have an answer. You don't.
This is about the 10th time I have asked that. NO ONE WILL ANSWER. So I can only assume that they can't answer it, so why on earth should I believe that theory?
You may disagree with my answer, and even redicule it... that is OK. but NO ONE has given me an answer based on evolution.

It is simple. It is because YOU CAN'T... PERIOD.

Thats what I mean. Freedom of Speech... UNLESS you disagree.. UNLESS your speech includes the word GOD. Then it's "shut up".

I love this! Really! Christians have always been persecuted, laughed at, mocked, and told to shut up. It comes with the territory. No one here is able to make me ashamed of my beliefs... they are only making them stronger.

But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED. (1 Peter 3:14)


"Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." [Matthew 5:10-12]

A few observations Forgiven, they have nothing to do with what you are saying, but please hear me out.

1- Try and put everything into one single post, making so many consetutive posts is borderline spam, and that is bad for both you and everyone else on these forums.

2- Dial down the caps, so many words in capital letters seems like you are shouting and is considered rude by many people.

3- This is the Internet, it is pointless to expect all people to agreed with you, thus responding to every other post is not a good idea.

4- Taking all of these together may lead some people to think that you are a troll, therefore they will start treating you as one.

As I'm sure you aren't one, please try and change the way you post, so that nobody end up getting offended.

so a large number of ppl have a set of belief that there is no "god", so is that a why of consideing the creation of the a superhuman agencies and the universe. therefore they are no longer atheists.





so organic viruses are organisms, right, and they are alive... therefore they are living organisms.

Definiteion of life:

The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
The characteristic state or condition of a living organism.

Congratulations forgiven you have become the very monster you hated. You have axed every argument that doesnt include the word god. There are many hypotheses out there for biogenesis. One of them is the primordial soup argument involving complex chemical reactions triggered by lightning strikes from the volatile atmosphere.(correct me if I am wrong bio majors, CS here) Some of them involve bacteria being transferred from another source. One of them suggests that the first form of "life" was a self replicating protein. However all my arguments shall fall on deaf ears due to the fact that you have already decided your belief. That is perfectly fine, but when you mock an argument by disregarding all other evidence except your faith, at that point do you become a fanatic. At that point does your very audience turn against you.

I believe in god and I believe in the scientific explanation for biogenesis. Why because I believe that god has granted us a brain capable of unraveling the mysteries of the universe so that we may appreciate his creation! Most kids will not prefer to listen to classical music(most please dont start a tangent argument on this...if you do prefer classical I apologize) however once that child has played the piece it takes on a whole new life. A whole new level of appreciation is gained from it.

Have you even considered that the reason that no one will answer your questions is because your so damn arrogant. Sure you may believe in the lord but you sure as hell have no respect for your fellow man and gods fellow creation.

OK As I understand the current thinking on how life arose, it took something like 500 million to 1 billion years for life to get started. That is a LOOOOOOOOONG time. The first life forms were extremely primitive, just an RNA strand that started copying itself. All the molecules needed for the RNA existed in the primordial oceans, all it took was for the right chemical reactions to get things going. We haven't been able to recreate it in a lab because it took a LONG time for the right circumstances to come about. It took about as long as there have been vertebrates just to get life started.

Life is extremely resilient, and once it got going, it evolved.

Whoa, Forgiven, what's with the hostility?

I'm sorry, but I can't tell you how life began. There are several hypotheses on the subject, but so far there is no Theory of Abiogenesis. And that's because so far we've gathered very little evidence on the subject, so it is not currently possible to determine which (if any) of those hypotheses are correct (and thus gain the title Theory). So, in short, I don't know.

But, from your postings, it's clear that you believe God did it. So I'll ask again: why should I believe the Biblical account?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what sort of creationism to you believe in? Are you a strict literalist? Do you think that the Earth is 6000 years old? Or are you a Day-Age creationist? If not asking so that I can make fun of you. I'm just trying to understand your position.

Evolution for Dummies:
Chapter 1
A little Ameoba was swimming around one day, and wished he could go on land. But he had no legs.

Poof... a million years later, legs popped out of his single cell. Now the ameoba crawled onto land. But he couldn't see anything, so it did him no good. I wish I could see, thought the little ameoba.

Poof... a million years later, an eye appeared. Wow! This is awesome, thought the little ameoba. Is that a "girl" ameoba over there? He walked over, but couldn't speak, because he had no mouth. Man,I wish I could talk to that cute ameoba.

Poof... a million years later, he had this opening that he could move and make sounds. He mumbled to the cute ameoba. They fell in love.

By this time, he had advanced well beyond the single cell he once was, so it is not really fair to continue calling him an ameoba. He is now call sludge.

Billions of years later, the sludge kept thinking of things he needed.. like standing upright, hearing and seeing in stereo, arms and fingers and such. With each new idea, he simply thought about it real hard, waited a few million years, and those appendages and other body parts magically appeared. This is amazing, he thought! All I have to do is find a use for some new body part, think about it real hard, and wait a million years or so, and it will "evolve" onto my body. To think, I started off as a single cell, and look at me now! And it only took a gazillion years.

What will I work on next, he pondered? Teeth! I want to be able to eat MEAT! He went to sleep, woke up in a million years with a mouth full of pearly whites.
I wish my arms were longer, so that I could swing from tree to tree. This sounds like fun. He woke up a mellinium later with long arms and legs... with hands on all four! Perfect for climbing and swinging and opening bananas.

He was a happy little monkey. Wow.. I started of as a single cell... look at me now!
But things were not quite right. He had no thumbs, so he had lots of trouble holding on to things. He kept dropping those bananas. What I need now, are opposable thumbs, but only on my arms. I don't need them on my feet, because I find standing upright more comfortable. But I really, really need those thumbs.

A million years past, and when he awoke, he had those opposing thumbs he needed.
I need a name. What will I name myself. He thought about it for awhile. From now on, I will be called Charles Darwin. And to think.. it all started with a single cell.
"What do I need now?", he thought. I need a brain. So maybe in a million years, Mr. Darwin will get one.

“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matthew 6:5-6)

Thats what I do when I pray. But I am not praying here. When I pray, I am having a conversation with God. Here on this forum, I am talking to people who say there is no God. So what is your point, besides calling me a hypocrite?

Forgiven, you should really lay off that straw man, he's in pretty rough shape.

But seriously, that isn't how evolution works. No evolutionary biologist says that how evolution works. And if you know of any, please cite a quote so I can go call him an idiot.

I asked you why I should believe what you do, and you post a long and elaborate straw man. How should misstating what I believe convince me to believe what you do?

You say that people are trying to silence you. I'm not! Please tell me what do you believe and why I should too.

It's essentially what these people feed on. If you give them legitimacy, they'll just weasel around any attempts to debate them on a intellectual level, while simultaneously refusing to assimilate even the most basic concepts of what they're attempting to "debunk". Most evolutionary scientists are familiar with the Bible (and other holy texts), yet fundamentalist tools like this one believe evolution says we came from fully-formed monkeys. It's a collective delusionalism that reduces all discussion to be just as simplistic as religion, especially the death-god-literalist Christianity "Forgiven" (what an ironic name) subscribes to. If you attack their beliefs, they play the persecution card, because as I pointed out white male Christians are so persecuted in this day and age, owning almost all the means of production, media, and government. So as with a troll, don't lower yourself to that level. It's fun to a point, but derails the thread.



Saying viruses are "alive" or "not alive" is really semantic. It's another consequence (similar to "species" differences) of the fact that our minds don't like sequential differences. I can say the wall is red quite easily, but if you gradually reduced that wall's relative "redness", it would be difficult to draw a line between where it becomes orange, let's say, and red. Obviously there are better examples, but that's one. Viruses are what they are. They're sacks of DNA in a protein coating. They exhibit some characteristics of life, but I wouldn't classify them as "alive" in the same way I would a bacterium.