Raging Amish Raging Amish

Your First Cap: Colonizer vs. Any of the Other Four Edited: 16/7/08

Your First Cap: Colonizer vs. Any of the Other Four Edited: 16/7/08

Edited: 21/6/08

I've been playing this game for a while now, and I noticed everyone has their own way, as according to the forums and what I see online, they like to go early in a game for which cap ship to build first. Some like the Sova rush, others like a battleship to start, some prefer the Marza, and then others prefer the colonizer. After having seen and used them all, I'm throwing my opinion out there.

The colonizer is the best option for the first cap. People talk about how they only pick the colonizer, or only pick the battleship. Regardless, the colonizer is hands down the best one. There's a lot of things to consider:

1. If you don't get the colonizer, you have to buy a colony frigate, possibly two. People argue that the colonizing frigate is nice because once you've gobbled up your planets, you can then get neutral mines. Sure, that is a nice perk, but that takes forever. The colonizer's antimatter regenerates much slower, and loses 100 with each jump. Couple that with needing 90 to colonize and 1/2 antimatter point / sec regen rate, and it will inhibit your initial expansion. The colonizing capital ship regenerates 1-ish antimatter a second, and has a larget antimatter pool. Expansion is no longer inhibited by waiting to colonize.

The other drawback to using colonizing frigates is they eat precious minerals very early in the game. When you are only making 1 metal a sec and .5 crystal a sec, the 100-140 metal (race dependent) and 50 crystal that you have to give up for a colony frigate can really hurt early on, especially if you get two.

2. The colonizing cap has a special ability attached to it's colonize ability.

The Akkan (TEC) gives 1 free mine at lvl 2 and 2 mines at lvl 3. I don't consider this all that useful. I mean, it's a nice perk, but I'd rather have Ion bolt fully upgraded than get the small boost from getting those mines free and up and running quicker.

3. By expanding quickly with the colonizing cap ( as in getting your planets up and running quicker than you would if you were waiting for the colony frig), you are going to be able to afford a fleet a lot quicker. This is just common sense. You get more planets, you have more raw resources, your upgrading your planets quickly, and you have a much higher overall income rate. You economy is much more stable much quicker because you have more planets.

4. Sometimes, early game battles are decided by the accompanying fleet, not the cap itself. This doesn't apply after about 30 min, but initially fleets are so small (cap + 10-15 frigs) that the most effective thing to do is to micro target the opponents frigs, not cap (Well, unless you're vasari, see my post "Illuminator Spammer"). Since any cap can take hits from 10 - 15 ships for at least a while, it really doesn't matter that your cap is a little weaker than a battleship in the initial parts of the game.

I want to start bringing up the exception. TEC fleets just don't pack the punch I want in early games. This is the race I'm most likely to not pick the colonizer because the force of a Kol, Dunov, Marza, or even Sova can be much more useful.

5. This is the part that I use to convince myself to go colonizer. By expanding and getting an eco established early, you're going to make getting the second cap go much quicker. You can get a second cap if you so desperately need it, and by going with the colonizer early, the second cap will come much quicker.

I love the colonizer for every race. People say it's easy to destory. Not really. People say you can be rushed and pay by not having a strong cap. Bull. You can have a fleet to counter a rush if you really have to worry about that. Not to mention, each colonizer has some trump ability, and that includes the Akkan, that comes in very handy.

The evacuator becomes a seige engine in the end with lvl 6 and thanks to its nanite bomb no enemy cap is safe.

The mother ship not only has a beautiful colonizing ability, but malice and shield regen. It's lvl 6 is also nice if you do lose that one cap.

The Akkan has ion bolt, which is great for getting that fleeing cap. It's also great because if you fire it right as a mothership is firing shield regen, you cancel the ability and bring Advent fleets on par with TEC.

The % increase ability is ok, but Armistice is a beaut. You can stop a fight and escape with your entire fleet is you see you're going to lose. This may not seem that great, but say you have split your fleet, and he sends everything at the one that has armistice. That smaller fleet can run while your other terrorizes the enemy planets..

There's the case though...of smaller maps. These of course are different. On a map where you're almost certain you'll be engaging your opponent in less than 20 minutes, getting a different cap isn't a bad idea at all.

 I'm not making an all encompasing statement here. Play Point Blank and choose the Colony Cap and you're writing your death warrant, but still, 95% of the time now I pick the colonizer. I only ever pick anything else on very small maps, such as Razor's edge, where having some ability such as a seige bonus will be necessary to win.

This is just my opinion. I welcome all criticism, positive or negative.

43,010 views 89 replies
Reply #26 Top
Not any more. You can edit your posts as long as noone has read them, I believe...
Reply #27 Top
I'll take the Kol everytime. Expanding quickly isn't an issue, for the TEC, its about going on the offensive and killing the opponent's cap ship as quickly as possible. For that you'll need a Kol.
Reply #28 Top
I just did a test on a small random map as TEC in order to see what provided the fastest expansion: Kol supported by colony frigates and Cobalts, or Akkan supported by Cobalts?
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< good stuff here >
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Any conclusions? It's too late to write mine...
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Very interesting. And a very good test of the two strategies. I look forward to viewing the recorded games ( at work now and my Internet connection at home blows ). You may have won a convert. I guess the deciding factor then would depend on if a two minute difference is worth trading the Akkan for the Kol later in the game.

There may be differences in style and therefore slight differences in times, but it's hard to argue in view of cold hard replays. I rarely research Modular Arch or High Density Zoning. with two civ labs I go for Psidar ( or whatever it's called ) to get a good view, trading, and metal/crystal mining buffs. I end up selling a LOT of metal and crystal later on, and use it to finance my fleets.
Reply #29 Top
There's something else that people have brought up, the fact that sometimes you need to colonize in different direction. For instance, you jump to a roid, take it, but then must go back to the homeworld and take another.

I very rarely do this. The only way I do this is if the asteroid is off on it's own with one phase lane, and it's attached to my homeworld. By making a constant line, slowly adding to your fleet, you can make a "circle" back to your homeworld and have a much more stable resource income very early.

I'm not much for posting replays, but I'll gladly do it. I've never had to do it though, so if someone could explain how to do it, I'll put up a couple replays.
Reply #30 Top
I like to get Modular Architecture as quickly as possibly, the sooner I get it, the sooner it pays off. I think it's of more use than getting the first cobalts a couple of minutes earlier. High Density Zoning, I get if I have resources to spare and my home planet is at maximum pop. But it does mainly depend on whether or not I'm looking at getting additional terran planets.
Reply #31 Top
...Scouts, and intelligence in general, are invaluable. Having knowledge of the layout of the map allows me to send my task force(s) to the best targets for expansion right away, in other words, I get to plan my optimal route of expansion. The difference between jumping to a lightly defended planet instead of a heavily defended one of the same type is simply huge in the beginning of the game. Furthermore, scouts reveals the neutral extractors, which you'll want to get to sooner rather than later. If I was to play the same map without scouts (and could wipe my preexisting knowledge of the map away), I'm pretty sure you would have to add at least 5-10 minutes to each of the results.
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I agree intelligence and recon are important, but I thought this was a "beginning the game" thing... On an average map for me, 20-30 planets with each faction and the pirates, There's no mystery where I'm going. It's to the next planet. I can traverse all of the planets near me in little time, have everything wiped clean and ready to go for the colony ship. Scouting done, neutrals neutralized, colonies planted...

Later on, as the sighting the different colors begins I make a few scouts and see what the neighbors are up to...

I may go back and revisit the Akkan just to see how I fare. Maybe with the experience and added info I have now it will make a difference. I can honestly say I'm curious now...

TarlSS...Akkans are terrible...
End of quote


Later game in a fleet, the Akaan's abilities aren't that bad... The targeting makes a difference, the bolt can help get that one cap kill you need to wipe a fleet. Being able to get out of a losing fight and regroup can save your bacon... I take full advantage of it's colonize ability in enemy territory. Once my colors go up, the enemy will rush to take the new colony out... by then I have regrouped, resupplied, rebuilt, replaced and healed enough to give them a good fight, plus they split the fleet off going after the colony, which I gladly give up to get the Caps... I don't believe it to be a bad ship, just not the first ship i want...

T





Reply #32 Top
I agree intelligence and recon are important, but I thought this was a "beginning the game" thing... On an average map for me, 20-30 planets with each faction and the pirates, There's no mystery where I'm going. It's to the next planet. I can traverse all of the planets near me in little time, have everything wiped clean and ready to go for the colony ship. Scouting done, neutrals neutralized, colonies planted...
End of quote


I'm not sure what you mean with "beginning the game" thing: The three scouts are the first ships I built.
Reply #33 Top
I'm not sure what you mean with "beginning the game" thing: The three scouts are the first ships I built.
End of quote



One thing we do agree on. I build three scouts right off the bat. You have to know whats going on, where your enemies are, how far away they are..Why waste time with asteroids if you have a terran planet one hop the other way ? It makes a huge difference in strategy to find out the enemy is three hops away ( in which case I am spamming Cobalts, getting the Kol, and going for a quick kill ).
Reply #34 Top
Really good post, I actually went the colonizing cap ship with TEC and am doing alot better my 2nd game than my first, I plan to try many ways but its good to read so much tips regarding early game choices.

There's something else that people have brought up, the fact that sometimes you need to colonize in different direction. For instance, you jump to a roid, take it, but then must go back to the homeworld and take another.

I very rarely do this. The only way I do this is if the asteroid is off on it's own with one phase lane, and it's attached to my homeworld. By making a constant line, slowly adding to your fleet, you can make a "circle" back to your homeworld and have a much more stable resource income very early.

End of quote


As a newbie I never thought of this , when I started out on a random huge map I had 4 phase lanes connecting to my home word

lone roid
^
|
----colonised right
| \
colonised down

This setup is really hard for me to defend, maybe I will stick in the same direction sometime , if ever given the chance to watch a game like this I would take it and sppreciate it.
Thanks!
Reply #35 Top
I'm not sure what you mean with "beginning the game" thing: The three scouts are the first ships I built.
End of quote


Ummm...pardon me for butting-in...but...isn't "first ships I build" counts as "beginning the game"?

You rarely need scouts once you have the clairvoyance/scanners research thingie that alerts you on incoming fleets. And by then, all of the relevant colonies are (better be!) armed to their teeth to intercept incoming fleets.

In fact, I really don't understand this whole AI thing to constantly send scouts all over the place. Simply group a monster of a fleet (keep a few ships behind for defense) and roam to the next planet. It's empty? good, keep moving. It's a small enemy colony? Wipe it out. It's a fortress of fleets and defenses? good, you have a fight on your hands, fight it out already! You are beaten? Sucks, but retreat your surviving ships and have your factories beef up the numbers again, and go at it.

This whole - send a scout, watch if the enemy's fleet is not there, send your fleet ordeal the AI is using is quite useless, as I will see your fleet in-transit and will send my nearby defense-fleet to the attacked colony to intercept. You will be able to have a clean 30 seconds at most before my defense fleet will arrive, and my defenses would keep you tangled up till then anyway.
Reply #36 Top
Ummm...pardon me for butting-in...but...isn't "first ships I build" counts as "beginning the game"?
End of quote


Yes, but I got the feeling that he thought I didn't build the scouts in the beginning but later.
Reply #37 Top
The thing is yeah you can get alerted to what is coming, but having your own scout unit to be able to see what is being built before hand gives you a sense of the appropriate counters to build.
Reply #38 Top
In fact, I really don't understand this whole AI thing to constantly send scouts all over the place. Simply group a monster of a fleet (keep a few ships behind for defense) and roam to the next planet. It's empty? good, keep moving. It's a small enemy colony? Wipe it out. It's a fortress of fleets and defenses? good, you have a fight on your hands, fight it out already! You are beaten? Sucks, but retreat your surviving ships and have your factories beef up the numbers again, and go at it.
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It's not as much about locating the enemy as it is about determining what his fleet composition is. If you know what kind of ships he's building, you can build to counter him. If he's spamming Cobalts and I find out about it, my opponent is going to learn the hard way that he shouldn't bring a Cobalt to an Illuminator fight.
Reply #39 Top
I'm not sure what you mean with "beginning the game" thing: The three scouts are the first ships I built.Ummm...pardon me for butting-in...but...isn't "first ships I build" counts as "beginning the game"?You rarely need scouts once you have the clairvoyance/scanners research thingie that alerts you on incoming fleets. ..
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You will be able to have a clean 30 seconds at most before my defense fleet will arrive, and my defenses would keep you tangled up till then anyway.
End of quote


They're useful for a lot more then that. How about finding out his fleet is several hops away fighting a pirate raid ? Or that once past his choke-point he's got no defenses, or purely static ones ( "Orders, Admiral ?" , "Skirt his static D, split the fleet, and pillage with insane abandon Ensign !" ). How many planets you control ( If I have more, I can afford a war of attrition and just out produce you ). There's tons of info I can use to hurt your economy, ship production, or both..

Scouts ROCK.
Reply #40 Top
Vanechka...Scouts? Why? Kol is the best scout. You've wasted time and materials and cash on three ships I never build. I know what's on the other side of the phase lane... It's a planet and ships. The only time it gets a little hairy is if you happen to be next store to the pirates, which happened one time, and was not an issue... I just made a louie and jumped out... (I play all random maps BTW...)As for getting a trade route going, as TEC it's a second level tech, which I research before ice and lava if I don't find any, or in between if I do. I prioritize getting trade ports built on the colonized planets ASAP, and then go back and expand the logistic slots and build one at home. I have trade income going very quickly. (I limit myself to ONE trade port per planet though, I hate spam... although I could triple my income by spamming ports easily.)Raging Amish... A Marza? not until I have someone to go after... I can see it from a multi-player stand point if your goal is to hit fast. I tend to have a decent chunk of galaxy to defend, so most of my early Caps are Kol/Dunov combos, then the other three added in to perform specific fleet functions. I would think a Marza would be a waste of recourses early on. Maybe I just haven't gotten one promoted high enough to notice it's superior qualities... mine end up 5 or 6 usually.T
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The motto of the military scouts at large: "Find the enemy, don't let the enemy find you" If you control the reconnasaince war, you win the battle every time, because you know whats there and can react to it, however the opponent does not know what he is facing and therefore has to react to YOUR moves.

In war, whoever holds momentum wins.
Reply #41 Top
Scouts ROCK.
End of quote


Agreed, on some of the larger maps, I often have 50 scouts running around late game.
Reply #42 Top
Yes, but I got the feeling that he thought I didn't build the scouts in the beginning but later.
End of quote


Um... no. I build scout (not scouts, usually) later. I was commenting on the fact that you build 3 ships I find quite unnecessary first, wasting time and resources, and yes...
Ummm...pardon me for butting-in...but...isn't "first ships I build" counts as "beginning the game"?
End of quote
...that's what I thought too...

This is similar to how I play:

[quote]In fact, I really don't understand this whole AI thing to constantly send scouts all over the place. Simply group a monster of a fleet (keep a few ships behind for defense) and roam to the next planet. It's empty? good, keep moving. It's a small enemy colony? Wipe it out. It's a fortress of fleets and defenses? good, you have a fight on your hands, fight it out already! You are beaten? Sucks, but retreat your surviving ships and have your factories beef up the numbers again, and go at it.{/quote]

Except maybe for the get beaten and retreat part. I never "lose", I just have to go "regroup"... Some may call it sloppy, but we're talking BEGINNING of the game here, according to the OP... or so I thought. Opening strats, not hey there's the enemy I better build a fleet now strats.

My point is that my Kol IS my scout ship. Along with the fodder, I jump into planets and go.

One thing we do agree on. I build three scouts right off the bat. You have to know whats going on, where your enemies are, how far away they are..Why waste time with asteroids if you have a terran planet one hop the other way ? It makes a huge difference in strategy to find out the enemy is three hops away ( in which case I am spamming Cobalts, getting the Kol, and going for a quick kill ).
End of quote


I have them BOTH already, plus the other Terran planet at the bottleneck. I don't "choose", I take control. If it's in the way, it gets obliterated, the colony frigate comes in and I own it. I have 5 or 6 planets going strong before I see the first enemy fleet. By then I have my 2nd and 3rd Kol/Dunov pair going with their appropriate fodder. I have a main attack fleet, a 2 defense fleets on opposite sides waiting to jump to any planet for the inevitable pirate raid or attack.

It's not as much about locating the enemy as it is about determining what his fleet composition is. If you know what kind of ships he's building, you can build to counter him. If he's spamming Cobalts and I find out about it, my opponent is going to learn the hard way that he shouldn't bring a Cobalt to an Illuminator fight.
End of quote


And here is when I have my scout... because this IS valuable intel. The original post was about what you build FIRST, not later down the road.

Hopefully this clears up any inconsistencies or misunderstandings. Your mileage may vary. Guaranteed not to break, fade, crack or rust for 5 minutes or 5 miles whichever comes first.

T


Reply #43 Top
antracer, you really should try to build scouts at the beginning of the game, it makes for a much more effecient beginning to the game. I've actually steadily increased the amount of scouts I build at the beginning of the game due to how valuable the intelligence gathered is. 3 Scouts and the intelligence they give you, are certainly worth the 600-750$ at the beginning of the game, especially given what else you can spend it on.
Reply #44 Top
Here's what I think as a single player only type of guy. I have been using the Kol these days, if only because the Akkan is boring combat wise :).

With the Kol my goal is to clear and get XP, so scouting is not so much of a factor. There is always an asteroid next to home, you have a pretty good chance of hitting it. If I need to know which jump would be the best I use a Cobalt to take a look. After I have a nice core established I'll send out the scouts.

I also go right to orbital commerce, i don't research anything (unless I need ice/volcanic that fast for whatever reason) until I have the trade ports up. If there is an overzealous AI you can have enough credits to throw cobalts at them if you need to, even if they are like tissue paper you can afford to keep sending them in. Those increased extractor rates are horrible early game, increasing production from 1.0 to 1.1... woohoo.

good thread OP

Reply #45 Top
I play as the Vasari

I used to go for the colonizer cap all the time. But now I've been going with the battleship and it's been paying dividends because I like having a powerful late-game battleship. I play on large/single/random map against 6 AIs in ffa.

So I start with a battleship cap and colonizer frigate. Later when I get the colonizer cap as my 3rd cap (siege cap is 2nd for me) then I can expand on two fronts if I want, using the colonize ability and my previous colonizer frigate. However, I tend to now use my battleship cap as part of my defensive fleet that flies around repelling attacks while my colonizer/siege frigate goes on the offensive (they have good synergizing special abilities).

I've been thinking though that maybe taking the siege cap would be even better in the long run!!! The thing that slows down early expansion the most imho is sieging the planets. So, having a more powerful siege cap can help you expand faster which helps get your economy going faster. Even if it is only a bit faster that bit means a lot imho that early in the game. I'm thinking of trying a siege cap start to see if it helps me get a better start or not. So I'd probably so siege cap, then battleship cap, then colonizer cap.

EDIT: Also, thinking about which cap has the best level 6 ability might be the way to decide which cap you take first...
Reply #46 Top
I have played around with them both some and concluded that once i have scouted the first few planets even (yea I am a scout builder first thing also =P ) and have a good look at how the space lanes are layered out just 2 jumps away I know if I will be needing a battle ship or if I can get the greater economic advantage of the colony cap ship. Keep in mind I play mostly as Advent or Vesari and I consider their colony caps to have abilities I want later. The Advent is obvious for the Malice but... in my opinion their colony bonus is the best one in the game. By level 2 of their colonize you are getting a huge reduction in the cost of upgrading a planet and I often find this to be my most expensive early game expense. Taking 20% off the cost of the first population upgrades on a few planets in the beginning can buy you several tech upgrades or even give you enough to go for a second cap ship early and even a larger fleet to go with it. You may think I am over stating it but it really makes a difference... Try it out.

So I get the colony cap for Advent and level malice and their colonize ability. If I get the Shield Regeneration with Malice I don't have the juice to keep both going in most major early fights against a determined rush with a solid fleet. That becomes a meeting engagement usually with both players sending a constant stream of reinforcements so the anti matter just doesn't hold out. And since I want the malice if I can get it later the choice is more or less made for me. With the saving on planets I can often get a second cap more or less as just a bonus if I have colonized say 5 or 6 worlds and upgraded them. Or I can start teching early.

Vasari like because of their damage over time (which speed up the clearing process a good deal if you micro it a little) and their level 6 ability. If the game drags on for a long time and I can some times field a fleet with 2 of the colony caps to raid rear areas. Sure people always have a defensive fleet sitting around but unless the planet in question is a upgraded Desert or Terrian the first time you use those 2 lvl 6 abilities on it it is toast so you never have to hang around long enough to really siege. =) Then you just give them some flak cover, a little healing, and some extra bombers to take out some installations on my way through the system to suck a world dry like a tasty milk shake. Then let the chase through their rear areas begin. Far better than their siege cap ship in that regard. Kind of odd because I sometimes think their siege cap is a better battle ship for a fleet than their actual battleship. Kind of a backward little race.

But don't take my word for it... try it out.
Reply #47 Top
antracer, you really should try to build scouts at the beginning of the game, it makes for a much more effecient beginning to the game. I've actually steadily increased the amount of scouts I build at the beginning of the game due to how valuable the intelligence gathered is. 3 Scouts and the intelligence they give you, are certainly worth the 600-750$ at the beginning of the game, especially given what else you can spend it on.
End of quote


I don't see it. Build three ships and send them off to find what I know will be right next to me?

A: build scouts and find out I have an asteroid, a volcanic, a desert and a terran planet at a bottleneck...

OR

B: build a Kol and a colony frigate. Send the Kol off and find out I have an asteroid, a volcanic, a desert and a terran planet at a bottleneck... with the added bonus of wiping out the opposition so the colony frigate can come in and settle behind it.

Your advantage: You know where the 4 planets are and what they are and that the enemy homeworld is over there...
My Advantage: I have 3 of the 4 planets settled, am teching volcanic, and know the alien homeworld is "over there"...

Later on, when I see enemy scouts with frequency above "once in awhile" I start scouting a little. The early warning tech lets me know what and where attacks are coming. I have 2 fleets ready, one on the choke point to defend and one to go around behind and attack, plus my main fleet to float wherever I want it, usually to work against the blow by maneuver perpetrated by pirate raiders.

Seriously... Scouts tell me what I already know. "There's alot of bad ships in that there next planet... and they're headed for the phase lane lookin' for YOU!" and "The enemy has all them planets over there. There's a boatload of guns and ships awaitin', so bring the big stick when you go..."

I prefer to spend my coin on stuff that'll blow them out the sky... not just tell me where they are. Unless of course, I want to SPAM scouts... but I don't allow myself to SPAM anything, so I don't.

Not to say your method doesn't work. Not to say your information isn't valuable. Not to say that it isn't a viable opening... I just have different values and priorities, and my strategy (or lack thereof) reflects that.

T
Reply #48 Top
When talking about scout or no scout, please state if you play SINGLE or MULTIplayer games. Of cause it is not necessary to build scouts against the AI. That's because the AI sucks and can't win against anybody with a little experience.

If you play multiplayer this is very different. Not building scouts there is suicide, simply because fast rushes are very probable and without an early scout you have no way to see them coming (not to mention the whole "know what your enemy does" thingy).
Reply #49 Top
Your advantage: You know where the 4 planets are and what they are and that the enemy homeworld is over there...
My Advantage: I have 3 of the 4 planets settled, am teching volcanic, and know the alien homeworld is "over there"...
End of quote


That's a very unrealistic summary of the advantages each of us holds. At the core, these are the advantages:

3 Scouts: Knowledge of the map area relavent to the early phase of the game.

No scouts: 600$ and 6 supply points free (initially) which would otherwise be in use.

To me, that's one of the best investments you can make in Sins.

When talking about scout or no scout, please state if you play SINGLE or MULTIplayer games. Of cause it is not necessary to build scouts against the AI. That's because the AI sucks and can't win against anybody with a little experience.
End of quote


The advantages the early scouts give you is still prevalent in SP games, but I agree that there's less of a need for scouts versus the AI than against humans since the AI is more predictable, but there's still a clear need.
Reply #50 Top
If you don't build a scout (or some other non-capship unit) to check out the surrounding planets then, unless there is only one route out of your homeworld, you risk sending your cap to a volcanic/ice planet first instead of the asteroid. This results in 1 of 2 scenarios:

1) You go back to the homeworld and try another route out meaning you just wasted valuable time doing nothing but travelling back and forth

2) You clear the volcanic/ice planet, but can't settle it yet because you don't have the tech

If you scout first you know exactly where your priorities lie and it results in no lost time for your expansion