Exploit found

Hi, im playing Sins during last 2 weeks, and i have found a combo that allows you to destroy 100-300 enemy ships in 3 seconds (literally) with only 2 ships.
I think this is unbalanced, so I want to speak to a Developer or someone who can test it and fix it if necesary.
I have video demostration, 2 v 100, where i blow em up in 2 mouse-clicks, so if someone can help me it would be good :)
16,112 views 23 replies
Reply #1 Top
Malice and Cleansing Brilliance, by any chance?

If you're worried about fighting it, it's counterable by any one of the Capital Ships that have disabling abilities, since all you need to do is keep one of the capitals tied up to completely negate the ability. Although if an Advent is abusing Repulsion it can be a real pain to keep them disabled.

I don't view it as a fundamental imbalance though because of how it can be countered (and leveling those ships then guarding them can be quite a pain) and for the fact that Advents inferior economy means that they have to do more with less, and the combination allows for that. There are other topics though for talk about the balance of it all though.

If you're talking about another ability combination, sure everyone would love to hear about it. Not sure if you are though, since tt takes Brilliance a bit longer to do it's job than the 3 seconds you mention (8 seconds, to be precise, unless you hit a ton of ships with the Cleansing Brilliance).
Reply #2 Top
Yeah, its the combo, the skill takes 8 seconds, but the effect on a 100 ship fleet is at 3 seconds more or less. Im uploading the video now, i will post it when ready.

About disabling ability, the point is that the same Capital got a ability disabler, so, if you got 2 or 3 of them, you will be able at 90% chance to land it, and well, its posible to avoid it with more ability disablers, but no other civilization had so powerfull combo, we are talking about blowing up a 300 ship fleet with 2 Capitals...
PD: Sorry about my english :D
Reply #3 Top
Video
Here it is, sorry about the intro and the music (if you dont like it) but it was a video for friends at the begining.
Reply #4 Top
I'd say this is pretty messed up that someone could kill that many ships with just two capitals...
Reply #5 Top
Sweeeeet...

Malice is being rebalanced ;)
Reply #6 Top
i realy dont understand why 50% says the advent are overpowered or an exploit and the other 50% says they are to bad to play with them...

maybye malice and brilliance is powerful, but other races also have powerfull things...
The tec has his colonydestroyer weapon (hey they just can bunker and destroy my colonies one by one. Not my whole ships, but my whole colony with 2 shots) and a much better economy.

So why are all good advent things so unfair ?
Reply #7 Top
The OP mentions an exploit but correctly doesnt discuss it. He wants to know how to PM a mod, actually can see a mod has answered but I dont think its good others hinting at what the exploit may be since most people are going to use it now :(. I dont want to have to deal with numerous hacks and stuff online and mentioning what an exploit is has just made the game 10 times worse! Mods really need to plaster a mail on the front page about exploits and to make sure everyone knows not to broadcast them. This is only a suggestion from me and for the good of the game not to be akward :), honest!
Reply #8 Top
Target caps!
Oops, I shouldn't have said that out loud.
Reply #9 Top
Sweeeeet... Malice is being rebalanced
End of quote


Your nerfing this time because someone showed a combo (that said race was meant to use) that was under extremely ideal circumstances (ie staged). Or was this nerf already in the works to further reduce the differences among the races. It seems like everything is becoming more "standardized" among the races.

OP: Why don't you show you doing that under an actual battle (multiplayer preferable but sp would work) and we'll see just how effective that combo is compared to this staged one. All of those ships were lined up perfectly, and if said scenario happened in a real battle, it's because either the advent player had better tactics (skill, merit, etc) or the other player had terribly tactics, in which case that should have happened anyways.
Reply #10 Top
The OP mentions an exploit but correctly doesnt discuss it. He wants to know how to PM a mod, actually can see a mod has answered but I dont think its good others hinting at what the exploit may be since most people are going to use it now . I dont want to have to deal with numerous hacks and stuff online and mentioning what an exploit is has just made the game 10 times worse! Mods really need to plaster a mail on the front page about exploits and to make sure everyone knows not to broadcast them. This is only a suggestion from me and for the good of the game not to be akward , honest!
End of quote


Except this wasn't an exploit.
Reply #11 Top
Well, i noticed the OP of the combo because in a multiplayer battle, where i used it against a 60 ship fleet and i blowed up 30 more or less.
just make some mathematics:
The CS makes 250 damage/sec during 8 secs, so it makes 2k damage. if u hit 5 ships with it (its very common to hit 3-7 with it) you make a total of 10k damage.
if u used Malice, every ship gets 25% of that 10k, so they get 2.5k, what ship no Capital can stay alive after that? so, only hitting 5 ships u can basicaly destroy a fleet
Reply #12 Top
psugar
Sweeeeet... Malice is being rebalanced
End of quote
You guys are taking the whole rebalancing thing way too far. You routinely listen to the most vocal of people and ignore everyone else. It's getting quite tiresome.

A spread out fleet with ships that disable, destroy antimatter, repair, or shield other ships would have prevented this perfectly staged scenario. If you're going into something civil war-style with all your ducks in a row like this, you deserve to lose them all in 8 seconds.
Reply #13 Top
You guys are taking the whole rebalancing thing way too far. You routinely listen to the most vocal of people and ignore everyone else. It's getting quite tiresome.A spread out fleet with ships that disable, destroy antimatter, repair, or shield other ships would have prevented this perfectly staged scenario. If you're going into something civil war-style with all your ducks in a row like this, you deserve to lose them all in 8 seconds.
End of quote


True, its perfectly staged, but u cant pretend to prevent it with repair or shield, obviusly, just see the speed they die, and its skill damage, so u cant prevent it with tecnology, and yes, u can destroy antimater, but fast enough to avoid the CS? it has good range.
Reply #14 Top
It seems like everything is becoming more "standardized" among the races.

End of quote


I dont want to see everything 100% watered down crap either , to me it seemed like every race had powerful abilities but now everythings getting changed to hell. I just hate nerfs though so Im not the one too judge :) because I 99.9% of the time put losing down to the other player being skilled except in extreme cases
Reply #15 Top
No edit button again but this was inevatble to happen , people moan about units perhaps from a context limited to how it effects there chosen faction and that has a knockon effect to all factions abilities because there is a severe imbalance to the nerfed faction . Same old same old wish except in extreme cases people would not shout so all the specials end up rubbish and you need a degree in warfare strategy to use any abilities usefully.
Reply #16 Top
I wonder what would happen if a group of people decided to raise totally artificial complaints about a good (or even maybe even a sub-par) unit or ability to see if it would get nerfed. If done right I think a substantial nerf could be given to the Hoshiko or the Drone Host as a result of totally off-base complaints (see: Siege Frigates).

From my experience, most Real Time Strategy games begin with fairly unique units and balance asymmetrically. For example, one faction may have a very potent unit compared to the others, but it has a weaker unit that balances it. Ofttimes there will be wholly unique units that each faction has, but others lack.

Then comes the complaints. Faction A doesn't have an exact copy of Faction B's unit, this is unfair. So gradually units are tweaked from all factions so they are more or less mirror images, usually with slight differences in cost or hitpoints, although they retain their visual look to maintain the illusion that there is some difference between them. We've seen this a bit so far with this game, Drone Hosts were a cheap, early alternative for Advent seemingly, but they were upped in price to make them just like the others, just a tier higher. Illuminators were unique creatures, doing a strange damage type and later, but made Advent do something than the traditional boring build a ton of LRF's to win, but this was changed to make Illuminators just like the others, but stronger. I would not be surprised if the more unique Capital abilities (particularly Advents) were chewed into.

Malice is a strong, unique ability. But the Mothership is also a fairly easy unit to down in battle (the thing gets focus fired into oblivion with easy in many battles, even with proper support). It may need tweaking, but it should be done so with care.

88Alex88, Detonate Antimatter of the Radiance doesn't just deplete some antimatter, it also disables the abilities. But if you are truly worried about it, get a Revelation and just chain hit one of the Capitals with Revier. And if you want, you can use two low level Revelations to totally disable two high level Capitals and stop them dead (talk about balance, right?). Each faction has a way to disable enemy capitals, and you can get them right off the bat, rather than having to get a Level 6 and a Level 5 ship together (which alone are far, far more valuable).

Your test was a wonderful set piece, but in a real situation it is a pain with such effect, and is vulnerable to a slew of things. If you mess up, you get destroyed easily by a hoard of Kodiaks that all the micromanagement they take is to click on a target and watch them die.

And just for clarification "25% of that 10k, so they get 2.5k". That will not happen for the very simple reason of Shield Mitigation (test if you do not believe me). Due to the way Cleansing Brilliance works, it forces the shield mitigation up throughout the attack, generally resulting in the target taking far less than 2,000 damage (a high level capital can get by with under 1,000 damage from the hit). The trickle down is severely effected by this factor. So to do 2,500 damage, it's more likely that you'll have to get 10 ships in the beam, and stay in the beam, which nearly all decent players would just avoid by spreading out. And honestly, if a player clumps up their ships that tight when there is Malice and Cleansing Brilliance on the field and also do not try to disable either of the ships, they likely deserve the blast they're about to receive, I think. Spreading out is far easier, since the way Malice works the ships have to be in proximity, and remain in proximity for the damage to propagate correctly.

It's a power combination, but it's no exploit (as much so as Returning Armada or TEC economy, I would say) and can be countered. Your only worry is if your opponent abuses Guardians (try getting Guardians, Repulsion, then playing with the ability). But the Guardians are for elsewhere...

Right now, Malice and Illuminators scare me far more, since they require comparably little micromanagement and relies largely on expendable ships. The dps that a large group of properly managed Illuminators can put out during a Malice strike can be terrifyingly effective (they literally can surpass Brilliance in some instances, and since they aim at different targets who will not be maxing out their mitigation, more of the damage is received and propagates). That I think is more of an issue than Malice and Cleansing Brilliance.
Reply #17 Top
Sweeeeet...

Malice is being rebalanced
End of quote


Notice his verb tense. It indicates that Malice is already being tweaked at the moment. Give the guy a break, people. Breathe in, breathe out. If it turns out badly, it turns out badly and THEN you can unleash the hounds or declare fatwah or *preferred method of voicing your concerns* :).

Good discussion all around, though.




i realy dont understand why 50% says the advent are overpowered or an exploit and the other 50% says they are to bad to play with them...
End of quote


This is probably because posts declaring Advent useless in multiplayer are from a different patch where they just didn't stand much chance out of the gate vs. the other options. Comments like this are important to note in the context of the patch during which they were made.
Reply #18 Top
Malice and Cleansing Brilliance, by any chance?If you're worried about fighting it, it's counterable by any one of the Capital Ships that have disabling abilities, since all you need to do is keep one of the capitals tied up to completely negate the ability. Although if an Advent is abusing Repulsion it can be a real pain to keep them disabled.I don't view it as a fundamental imbalance though because of how it can be countered (and leveling those ships then guarding them can be quite a pain) and for the fact that Advents inferior economy means that they have to do more with less, and the combination allows for that. There are other topics though for talk about the balance of it all though.If you're talking about another ability combination, sure everyone would love to hear about it. Not sure if you are though, since tt takes Brilliance a bit longer to do it's job than the 3 seconds you mention (8 seconds, to be precise, unless you hit a ton of ships with the Cleansing Brilliance).
End of quote


Since I've been doing this since I noticed the combo the first day I played, I'd like to comment on it. This video is a pathetic representation of a fight. You intentionally clustered the ships shoulder to shoulder and positioned the BC to the flank, which never happens. Its extremely difficult to hit 5 ships in a big fight with brill while managing to malice 40+ at the same time. Advent cap superiority due to its level 8 mil tech comes in to play in the late game, where they have to compete against RA, superior economies, superior fleets, and superior planet busters.

Not only that, Advent are handicapped early game as well due to the worthlessness of culture and disciples, forcing a tech of 3 mil -> 3 econ to even compete. Instead of plowing straight into a head-on fight and letting go of the keyboard, think about the advantages of your race and use them. I feel if an advent player outmicros you in a fight you CHOSE to fight, you deserve to lose the fight. Advent fleets are extremely immobile and rely on caps to win fights, use this information to your advantage. If a game gets to the point where advents have 4-5 level 6 caps and you can't handle it/counter it, you lost 30 minutes ago when you decided to sit on your hands. Other race caps are just as effective, just in a less direct way.

This is probably because posts declaring Advent useless in multiplayer are from a different patch where they just didn't stand much chance out of the gate vs. the other options. Comments like this are important to note in the context of the patch during which they were made.
End of quote


Advent out of the gate really didn't change very much in 1.04. People still build the exact same things and you have to straight tech to illums to counter it. This puts you at a severe economic handicap because advent get trade ports at harmony 3, and you have to go to hostility 3 to fight effectively. Needing two more logistics slots and ~250 more crystal than your enemies just to compete and have a decent economy puts you very far behind your enemy.
Reply #19 Top
I don't want Malice balanced :SNIFF!: It's the best thing about Advent. X-(
Reply #20 Top
For example, one faction may have a very potent unit compared to the others, but it has a weaker unit that balances it. Ofttimes there will be wholly unique units that each faction has, but others lack.Then comes the complaints. Faction A doesn't have an exact copy of Faction B's unit, this is unfair. So gradually units are tweaked from all factions so they are more or less mirror images, usually with slight differences in cost or hitpoints, although they retain their visual look to maintain the illusion that there is some difference between them. We've seen this a bit so far with this game, Drone Hosts were a cheap, early alternative for Advent seemingly, but they were upped in price to make them just like the others, just a tier higher. Illuminators were unique creatures, doing a strange damage type and later, but made Advent do something than the traditional boring build a ton of LRF's to win, but this was changed to make Illuminators just like the others, but stronger. I would not be surprised if the more unique Capital abilities (particularly Advents) were chewed into.Malice is a strong, unique ability. But the Mothership is also a fairly easy unit to down in battle (the thing gets focus fired into oblivion with easy in many battles, even with proper support). It may need tweaking, but it should be done so with care.88Alex88, Detonate Antimatter of the Radiance doesn't just deplete some antimatter, it also disables the abilities. But if you are truly worried about it, get a Revelation and just chain hit one of the Capitals with Revier. And if you want, you can use two low level Revelations to totally disable two high level Capitals and stop them dead (talk about balance, right?). Each faction has a way to disable enemy capitals, and you can get them right off the bat, rather than having to get a Level 6 and a Level 5 ship together (which alone are far, far more valuable).Your test was a wonderful set piece, but in a real situation it is a pain with such effect, and is vulnerable to a slew of things. If you mess up, you get destroyed easily by a hoard of Kodiaks that all the micromanagement they take is to click on a target and watch them die. And just for clarification "25% of that 10k, so they get 2.5k". That will not happen for the very simple reason of Shield Mitigation (test if you do not believe me). Due to the way Cleansing Brilliance works, it forces the shield mitigation up throughout the attack, generally resulting in the target taking far less than 2,000 damage (a high level capital can get by with under 1,000 damage from the hit). The trickle down is severely effected by this factor. So to do 2,500 damage, it's more likely that you'll have to get 10 ships in the beam, and stay in the beam, which nearly all decent players would just avoid by spreading out. And honestly, if a player clumps up their ships that tight when there is Malice and Cleansing Brilliance on the field and also do not try to disable either of the ships, they likely deserve the blast they're about to receive, I think. Spreading out is far easier, since the way Malice works the ships have to be in proximity, and remain in proximity for the damage to propagate correctly.It's a power combination, but it's no exploit (as much so as Returning Armada or TEC economy, I would say) and can be countered. Your only worry is if your opponent abuses Guardians (try getting Guardians, Repulsion, then playing with the ability). But the Guardians are for elsewhere...Right now, Malice and Illuminators scare me far more, since they require comparably little micromanagement and relies largely on expendable ships. The dps that a large group of properly managed Illuminators can put out during a Malice strike can be terrifyingly effective (they literally can surpass Brilliance in some instances, and since they aim at different targets who will not be maxing out their mitigation, more of the damage is received and propagates). That I think is more of an issue than Malice and Cleansing Brilliance.
End of quote


I dont wanna get a "faction A copy of faction B", i dont wanna mirrored units, but if a faction has 1 strong unit and 1 weak unit, for balance, that will not really balance, because noone will do the weak, only the strong, so, if the strong unit is so strong that he can beat a full fleet, its necesary to balance, not make a exact copy of faction B, just balance, slow the effect of their abilities, or make it more expensive. Its always the same, like in MMORPGs, if there is a Class obviusly over the rest, 80% people will get that class. So, in a game, one of the most important thing is to get factions balanced, to have a good play, and win because of your strategy and not ur overpowered OMG10kdamage-weapons.
Reply #21 Top
You guys are taking the whole rebalancing thing way too far. You routinely listen to the most vocal of people and ignore everyone else. It's getting quite tiresome.
End of quote


Yeah while Im a newbie and havent called for any balance changes , I worry that what you say is what will happen. This is why either IC needs to really do prolonged testing where balance is concerned and also how it affects the game as a whole. I liked the fact that all the factions had real strengths, It does seem to be that the most vocal people are getting changes made based only on how it affects themselves and not thinking about damage caused to the game as a whole. This is a flaw in many online games. I play TEC and some of those units have been dumbed down, advent has some really powerful units but I asked advice how I could better fight them I didnt ask to get them nerfed, I actually think its better most of the time because I know advent will give me a challenge and if TEC wasnt so dumbed down that would make it even more enjoyable :). Make every faction have strong points with potential counters only doable by skilled players, thats what the game seemed to have initially but its getting eroded to hell.
Reply #22 Top
Really need to sort the edit button functionality but just to finally say I 100% agree with you redmaw. Anyway Im away to have a game and dont want hassle but I Hope a good game doesnt get ruined. Fact is every faction should have really strong abilities which players should have to learn to counter. (Sure there are extremes which have to be dealt with but the fact is many times if a player just gets outclassed then people complain and the game gets wrecked, maybe Im just a cynic but Im thinking by the time I start playing MP seriously everything is going to be 100% identical and Im sorry that doesnt appeal to me and its unrealistic)

Except this wasn't an exploit.
End of quote


Cool I just took the persons word for it,(The way they described it; it did sound blatent and if there are abilities that are easily killing extreme amounts of ships extremely fast then I would say that is a bit of an exploit, like I said Im just taking the persons word for it which is why I reccomend not discussing exploits because its ruining the game for us all which I dont want to see happen but I will say no more :) ) I dont want to see rebalancing either if its brought about because people cant handle losing against their betters. I love the game and really liked TEC but everything seems to be getting changed :(. In defense of advent I remember playing them and one of their later ships were really weak so I actually think the initial setup was pretty close to great.
Reply #23 Top
I must comment that the debris cloud in that game video was beautiful in a post-apocalyptic sort of way. Would be nice to see an option for lots more debris after a fleet action.

Maybe malice could only do up to a percentage of damage peaked? Say, 25% of the total hit points of the craft? That way it would still be quite powerful but couldn't annihilate a fleet unless you could cast it four times while the enemy was trapped in a phase disruption field.

-- Retro