Nasty Nasty Trends

from Sins Forums
I see two trends in this game now, and it's quite frankly sickening.

1. Spam Long Range Frigates. Pretty simple. Doesn't work as well with LRM's as much anymore, nor with assailants. This is getting at Illuminators with the 1.04 patch, but it's still annoying. A very good player can have illums up and running about 6-7 minutes into the game. They're easily the strongest LRF and the only effective counter is another LRF spam or Flak. I don't consider the flak a trend though because I VERY rarely see anyone do it. No one does it because once you spam flak, well....you have a fleet of flak. The other counter, and this is what people seem to do nowadays is....

2. Tech straight to HC's. What the hell. If there's one thing that annoys me is the balance of the Heavy Cruiser. Ok, I understand that it's the most expensive cruiser in the game, so it better be damn good, but it has no effective counter. Bombers do the trick fairly well, but one flak will counter 4ish fighter/bomber groups, so that loses effectiveness. The only other thing that has an attack bonus percentage (look it up people) is the HC. Wow. The counter to this is another better implemented HC rush, or my personal favorite, repulse and stall the shit out of him until you can destroy his military labs and build a bigger fleet.

I don't see much else that works. Econ boom will get you rushed before you can effectively respond. Sova rush is effectively repulsed now by a competent player. A scout rush in the beginning will at best stall your opponent so you can rush to lrms yourself.

People don't go for more interesting opening moves because of how easily countered everything is by early lrms, and how dominant late game HC's are. I don't make fleets of Light Frigates because I know they'll be eaten by LRF's. I don't make flak because except for LRM's and fighters, there's not much they are good for, and a lot of the time they get chewed to bits by lrm fleets if I'm not careful (this mainly applies to illums). The fighter cruiser is too easily countered by flak, the support cruisers only make up 10-20% of the fleet, and HC's are what everyone ultimately goes to and spams abusively.

I want diversity. That's all. I just know now when I sit down for a smaller map, it's going to be LRM spams. When I sit down for something 2 v 2 medium random or 3 v 3 large single star, it's going to be HC rush. You're too far away to stop your opponent from doing it and it gives the best punch in the early game stages.

It's just sickening.

strategy
21,031 views 53 replies
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
If there's one thing that annoys me is the balance of the Heavy Cruiser. Ok, I understand that it's the most expensive cruiser in the game, so it better be damn good, but it has no effective counter.
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Illum spam w/ shield/hull/damage upgrades and Deceptive Illusion + guardians (WITHOUT repulse) + mothership w/ Malice/Shield Regeneration is quite effective against HC :)

On the one hand you complain that HC have no viable counter, then you complain that the units which CAN counter HC are themselves too powerful. You can't have it both ways...

The problem right now is that carriers are too weak. They are expensive and not very effective. If they were fixed so that they were once more an effective long range frig counter (fighters), and more powerful vs HC (bombers), this would complete the balance imo and promote diverse fleet composition.

The balance would go something like this:
Long range frigs counter light frigs --> Carriers counter long range frigs --> flak counters carriers (vs strikecraft) --> Light frigs counter flak, carriers (vs the cruisers themselves), and support craft.

HC counters all frigs and cruisers except carriers (bombers)... and of course my wuvable super sexy and super upgraded illum/guardian/mothership fleet :D


Right now however, carriers are too weak and too expensive (as I said above) to be viable... and so you can see how the unit counter chain breaks down accordingly. Without carriers flak and light frigs really have no good purpose, and the result is you dont see them used online... except by noobs of course :P




Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
One bomber run on an HC does give or take 50 damage.....not much for something with 2000 some hit points (hull + shield combined). The carrier itself is....weak. Very weak. Bombers sorta work. I said they did work. I should clarify. They don't. I don't disagree with anything you said, though once the guardians and mothership are gone, advent is screwed. You micro the support cruisers always.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
When it comes to carriers, I would like to see them able to hold more than one squadron per carrier. As mentioned above, they are too expensive to be a viable option for an early game counter. However, if you had two squadrons per carrier then you would have double to number of squadrons at your disposal. Just throw in some lrm's to deal with flak frigates and this could potentially be a nice counter.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
It does seem a bit odd that "carriers" can only carry 1 unit. I would love to see some more resarch/upgrade posibillities to increase this, at least.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Just throwing out a really wild idea.

But as for the Heavy Cruiser problem , Id actually like to see Light Frigates , cost for cost , being a viable counter. This would mean changing the heavy cruisers composite weapon to not do much damage vs medium armour , and for the cobalts anit-heavy weapon to do more damage to "very heavy" armour. Sounds ridiculous? try to think a little about the dynamics. The complaint is that HC is the end-all of units. The way to counter this is to create a rock paper scissors effect. If cobalts counter HC , then you have cobalt->HC->LRF->cobalt.

The other thing might be Bombers->HC->flak->Bombers , but then nobody should be forced to go down the strikecraft route to counter this unit.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Well personally I'd be a little upset by the idea of a Rock/Paper/Scissors mechanic. There may be other ways of balancing like Cost adjustments, but simplifying it like that would leave a bad after taste for me.
Just my opinion.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I also think something like the ability to create more than one type of ship (maybe a frigate as well as a cruiser) from the same factory at the same time would be nice, in trade for a small cooldown on specific construction. It would force variety, though I'm sure many would dislike the idea to begin with.

Ex:
Build - LRM + HC
Finish - LRM and HC are on -short- cooldown, but other ship types are available to build immediately.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
The problem right now is that carriers are too weak. They are expensive and not very effective. If they were fixed so that they were once more an effective long range frig counter (fighters), and more powerful vs HC (bombers), this would complete the balance imo and promote diverse fleet composition.
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There are two things that have to happen for this to come about. First of all, something has to be done about fighter overkill. Ships don't have this problem as they are able to retarget once they know enough ordnance has been fired to destroy their present target. The problem with strikecraft is that they have to attack in passes, and if a strikecraft squadron's target is destroyed before it attacks, it has to abort its attack run and select a new target, seriously cutting into its DPS. While this isn't technically overkill, it has the same effect. This is why interceptors are only marginally effective against LRMs even though they can do major damage to that armor type.

Secondly, carriers will have to be cheaper. Even though a bomber squadron compares favorably to a heavy cruiser in terms of DPS, cost, and supply, the fighters are very easily destroyed, meaning you are going to need more of them.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
When it comes to carriers, I would like to see them able to hold more than one squadron per carrier. As mentioned above, they are too expensive to be a viable option for an early game counter. However, if you had two squadrons per carrier then you would have double to number of squadrons at your disposal. Just throw in some lrm's to deal with flak frigates and this could potentially be a nice counter.
End of quote


I whipped up a mod where they could field two squadrons and it was pretty much OP. Increasing the effectiveness of light carriers 100% is too much. They need about a 25% boost, which can be easily accomplished just by making the ship cheaper, or by making the squadrons have 25% more craft
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Welcome to www.weeksbehind.com, enjoy your stay. Sorry you cant stop HC rush with scouts. Oh well.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
How in the WORLD are HC's too powerful. I can afford a capship for 3 HC's! A capship can take out 3 HCS. I dont spam HC's or LRFs I spam CAPS!
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
I'm with you man theirs no depth once you get past the dazzle. I.E. not enough different ship types. No med sub cap ship types. No true battle cruiser class. No planetary battlestations. Frig factories and Cap factories would have built in space defenses. Carriers may only carry fighters\bombers offensively, but would have defensive loadouts. No variety period on defensive structures. Only one type of offensive cruiser per race. Wheres the scifi creativity?
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
When it comes to carriers, I would like to see them able to hold more than one squadron per carrier. As mentioned above, they are too expensive to be a viable option for an early game counter. However, if you had two squadrons per carrier then you would have double to number of squadrons at your disposal. Just throw in some lrm's to deal with flak frigates and this could potentially be a nice counter.I whipped up a mod where they could field two squadrons and it was pretty much OP. Increasing the effectiveness of light carriers 100% is too much. They need about a 25% boost, which can be easily accomplished just by making the ship cheaper, or by making the squadrons have 25% more craft
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There is also a question of flexibility (i.e one squadron per carrier is not very flexible).

Perhaps it's better to give the carriers 2 squadrons, 60%-70% in size than they current squadron size?

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
I think the problem with LRM's isn't that they are too powerful, it's that they are available to early and they're CHEAP in both terms of resources and fleet cap. Add to this focus fire and long range, and you've got a pretty effective weapon system. Toss in a few upgrades ( at least as TEC ), and they get scary fast. You betcha people are gonna use them.

A few ideas come to mind for balance :

1: Limit the number of ships capable of focus firing in a single ship. If the limit was 15-20, it would tend to lessen the effect from an 80 member LRM swarm. It would at least let you counter it with something or retreat.

2: Maybe some type of percentage limit based on fleet cap ? IE : If you have a XXXX fleet cap, then you can devote 40% to frigates, 40% to HC's, and %20 to cap ships, and no more then 25% of your fleet can be of any one ship type.. using this, in theory, a 2000 point fleet could only have 50 HC's and 100+/- LRM's plus other assorted types ( versus 100 HC's and 200+ LRM's using the current model ) You can doink with the actual numbers, but you get the basic idea.

3: Fix carriers. I've used one or two as experiments, but really... useless. Worse then useless.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
I have played all the factions now , TEC at any point in the game is the most difficult to play, thats my view(Thats something considering I 90% of the time have been playing TEC, the onlt reason I stick with them is because I am expecting nerfs, I actually want to play vasari but I know once I finally get better with TEC I will adapt easier because anything but extrme rush with TEC well after this they dont hold up to well,people will say just rush but thats at least on MP not viable half the time), and the HCs seem to be good tanks but they dont feel as tough as what the other factions have. If someone spams HCs bomb the hell out of them or use a cap ship, fact is if TEC gets nerfed any more the other 2 factions are heading down the same road because they are 100 times easier to play IMO. The Vasari seem to be about the best balanced, there ships pack a punch but not ridiculously so and the fact is any of those factions go up against TEC with a remotely diverse fleet and they will cut through TEC ships like paper.

I happen to completely agree with the following quote, it seems people wont be happy until all diversity and strong points are out the window, as it stands ANYBODY can have an enjoyable game not just a select few because there are strategies for all levels.

Well personally I'd be a little upset by the idea of a Rock/Paper/Scissors mechanic. There may be other ways of balancing like Cost adjustments, but simplifying it like that would leave a bad after taste for me.
Just my opinion.
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Couldnt agree more

Im also not for limiting ships in any way shape or form, if someone has a huge fleet then it makes sense the opposing player is going to need a sizeable fleet of correct composition , limiting things like a numbers game anymore than the way it currently works is bad in my view. (Changes the game into a total numbers game as opposed to fleet composition and the reason TEC are using irms is because at any other point in the game their fleet isnt great, as for the HCs maybe its just me but they seem to take 9 years to kill anything) When I we nt vasari I had a couple of medium fleets with differant unit types and they seemed to be hitting much more consistantly and fighting how ships should without being overpowered, please dont wreck the game :( TEC probably looks like its getting a good deal because they can spam ships but I have found TEC ships to be the most in-effective, they need to spam because they are like paper against other factions.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Perhaps it's better to give the carriers 2 squadrons, 60%-70% in size than they current squadron size?
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That would work, but you'd need to adjust the number of squads the capital ship carriers can haul.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Bump HC and Illum supply. It's hard to spam when your economy starts going in the tanker to feed your fleet.

One other option (perhaps the same as reply #1's?) is to bump the supply by a "fleet count" mechanic. If you build 4 illums, that's 6 supply each for a total of 24 supply. But the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth, etc. costs SEVEN supply, reflecting that the ship requires more of the dwindling trace raw materials beyond crystal and metal that are necessary but not counted as inventory in the game, and specialized crew are running out. And the ninth would cost EIGHT, and so on. The figure could increment by one for each four identical frigates of a type, and 1.5 or 2 for each pack of four cruisers, or increment by one for every four ships of that type.

Thus, using a supply-costs-increase-every-four-levels approach:
OLD: 10 illums = 10x6 = 60 supply
NEW: 10 illums = 4x6 + 4x7 + 2x8 = 68 supply (12% higher)
not such a big deal, but

OLD: 20 illums = 120 supply
NEW: 20 illums = 4x6 + 4x7 + 4x8 + 4x9 + 4x10 = 160 supply (33% higher)

OLD: 30 illums = 180 supply
NEW: 30 illums = 4x6 + ... 4x12 + 2x13 = 278 supply (74% higher + requires another supply research level!)

This approach would massively encourage fleet diversity.

-- Retro
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
One other option (perhaps the same as reply #1's?) is to bump the supply by a "fleet count" mechanic. If you build 4 illums, that's 6 supply each for a total of 24 supply. But the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth, etc. costs SEVEN supply, reflecting that the ship requires more of the dwindling trace raw materials beyond crystal and metal that are necessary but not counted as inventory in the game, and specialized crew are running out. And the ninth would cost EIGHT, and so on...
-- Retro
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Holy crap... someone actually posted something intelligent that promotes fleet diversity. Hard caps and percentage based caps are horrible ideas.

I actually like this idea, kudos.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
Well, thanks, but now my brain hurts. ;)

I wonder if this can be modded...

-- Retro
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
>heavy cruisers
>no effective counter

Right after you end talking about the LRM? Hello, there's your counter right there.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
Spam beats spam, what a strat!
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I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it works.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Spam beats spam, what a strat!
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I would expand that by saying that upgraded, balanced, and well microed spam beats spam... still not much of a strat, but heh such is the reality of Sins for now...
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Bump HC and Illum supply. It's hard to spam when your economy starts going in the tanker to feed your fleet.One other option (perhaps the same as reply #1's?) is to bump the supply by a "fleet count" mechanic. If you build 4 illums, that's 6 supply each for a total of 24 supply.
.
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This approach would massively encourage fleet diversity.-- Retro
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Wow. That is a SMOKING idea. Much better than mine.

You could still spam HCs/LRMs if you really wanted to. And it would encourage fleet diversity. I like it.