I Don't Feel Enough Like I'm Drowning....

What I mean to say is, that the title of this post was meant to catch peoples' eye, and that I took a bit of poetic license bridging the unnecessary differences between the meanings of the words 'submerged' and 'immersed'.

Sins is a beautiful game, no doubt about that. There are also some major flaws, no doubt about that, either. Considering its relativly modular style and moddability compared to some antiquated games of Yore, this is the sort of problem that will probably be conquered by players, whether or not it's addressed by the developers. However, there is one flaw that I just can't seem to get past. And this goes for almost ALL new turn-based and real-time strategy.

I can't help but feel like I'm in the kiddie pool. There's a certain aspect of depth lacking. I know RTS can't be quite as deep as TBS, and that I'm sort of comparing apples to oranges, but there are just some aspects of games that were once Sacred that seem to be lost.

Take the greatest, in my humble opinion, turn-based strategy of all time. Stars!. Now if anyone here has ever played Stars!, I owe you a cookie. Stars lacked what would be called a 'graphical interface' by modern day standards (or even the standards of its own time). What you had was an indepth planetary control panel, and a large top-down strategic interface where planets were leeeetle circles on a black background of space, representing those planets in space which are potentially viable for colonization. Spaceships on this interface were triangular wedges travelling between these dots. Battles were generated each turn by the computer and resolved automatically when fleets clashed, with a very simple graphical recording which you could view.

However, the game was a freeware game designed in 1995. Despite these facts, Stars! was published and released boxed on store shelves in BestBuy, CompUSA, and a large number of other retailers in 1997; and as you can expect, the sales weren't too great. But I bought a copy, and this video game still rocks my world today.

So there were 6 races in Stars!. That's easy when races are an amalgalm of statistical advantages and disadvantages. However, each of these 6 base races were created in the game's 'Custom Race Generator', where you could customize an overwhelming amount of detailed advtanges and disadvantages for your race. Take Masters of Orion II or newer, GalCiv II's, custom race option. Multiply your choices by 10x. Races were customized using racial pick points, a pool of some unquantifiable thousands of points (you never actually see the 'base' number of points, just what you have left based on all you have/don't have selected). You picked an overall archetype for your race from about 14 to pick from, ranging from warmongering types, to peacemongering types, to interstellar travel experts, to hyperexpansionists, to planet physicists who terraformed each planet to their perfect specifications. And nearly a dozen others. Then you customized everything else. Do you build better starbases than others? Do you build crappy starbases? Are you good, terrible, or indifferent at orbital mining? Which fields of research are your people most adept at learning? Etc, etc, til the end of time.

OK, so I've digressed. The point is, I barely scratched the surface here. And old RTS possessed elements like this. Um...Fragile Allegiance is one example. Oh, and Star Wars Rebellion.

All I'm wondering is, why is it that the DEPTH of game that make players like me, who crave a game that you spend a long time discovering feel like we're truly immersed in? Why have they been essentially replaced by streamlined -strategy- games (AKA, you need to do a lot of THINKING games) that have nice graphics, are certainly fun, but also lack the depth to keep a hands on player like me interested?

Or more poignantly, why, when Stars! included all these aspects of gameplay - lacking only a hands-on combat interface and new-falooting graphics - did all of the things it did, that I could write 10 more pages about, in under 20 megabytes, and Fragile Allegiance combined RTS with a weird Sim City like feel to your colonies you established, mixing urban planning and ship development and fleet defense with economic and military takeover....can't new games do this? Or am I, the gamer, responsible for not finding the new video game that has everything I crave? Am I not searching hard enough? Or do I just want it all - the new game that is sleek and beautiful to look at like SoaSE and gritty and deep like Stars!? Maybe someone can give guidance to a man who walks without faith in the future of his favorite genre - space strategy.

16,938 views 11 replies
Reply #1 Top
I understand what you're saying. I'm too an "older" player. I can partly agree to what you're saying but there's also another explanation as to why games don't feel as special anymore as they did back then.

We've seen most things already. I think it's hard to create such a masterpiece that we will all sit down in wonder. It would of course be possible, but I think it would require a whole lot of development time to get it as full of depth as we would wish it to have.

Another reason perhaps could be that it would be hard to please everyone with one game. People like you and I missed a lot from this game, while others loved it and think it's near perfection.

One day we should get lucky too ;)
Reply #2 Top
I understand what you're saying. I'm too an "older" player. I can partly agree to what you're saying but there's also another explanation as to why games don't feel as special anymore as they did back then.

We've seen most things already. I think it's hard to create such a masterpiece that we will all sit down in wonder. It would of course be possible, but I think it would require a whole lot of development time to get it as full of depth as we would wish it to have.

Another reason perhaps could be that it would be hard to please everyone with one game. People like you and I missed a lot from this game, while others loved it and think it's near perfection.

One day we should get lucky too ;)
Reply #3 Top
Uhm, don't know what happened there. At first my post didn't show up so I posted it again. And now there's two. My apologies.
Reply #4 Top
hey. that's fine. I'm sure we can find someone innocent to blame for it, like Communism. Or maybe the Advent. They sort of have a Communistic society.
Reply #5 Top
I think what you want fills a niche that few fall into, making a game that deep and complex commercially unviable :/
Whether it would be the game for me I don't know, certainly, Sins is not a deep game, you scratch the surface and find nothing; a buttercream surface with uncooked dough for a centre. In that, what you see is what you get, and any amount of discovery that might be had through palyign the other races is ruined by the fact that each race is the same with different names. I do want something that has many layers, whether I would invest my time into something like taht though, I don't know.
Reply #6 Top
Also keep in mind that many of the deeper aspects of Stars! are not really suited for RTS, but only for turn-based games - e.g. giving repeating routes and tasks to ships, having an eye on the fuel consumption etc.

Having races that need different planet types would - in my opinion - be a nice feature; in Stars! you could perform terraforming to make planets more suited to your race's requirements, but if the planet was too hostile (environment, not culture) it was not worth colonizing - but you might send mining ships to exploit it.

Reply #7 Top
Ha, if you are waiting for your ultimate space exploitation game, try being a flight sim addict. Not only do game companies tend not make decent flight sims anymore, you also have to buy expensive hardware and controllers just to tread water in those games. At least in space games, many developers tend to allow the game to run on modest computers.

I would really love to see the games of the MicroProse generation get an update to today's hardware: Gunship!, B-17, Flight Of The Intruder, MiG Alley, US Navy Fighters... I digress.
Reply #8 Top
So, Stars! is like dwarf fortress, if I'm not mistaken?
http://dwarf.lendemaindeveille.com/index.php/Main_Page

Except it's turn based, and in space. Oh god, now I've got images of insame dwarves in space.

Seriously, people rarely have the time/patience/etc. for games like that anymore, and those that do are typically elitist who'd just rather play Stars! or DF, or what have you. Devs don't really see a reason to target some .00001% of the pop that wants a game like that when they can pop out a semi-deep space opera that's pretty innovative. Just my two cents.
Reply #9 Top
What about Space Empires? That game is full of detail from what I understand.
Reply #10 Top
Hi!
Now if anyone here has ever played Stars!, I owe you a cookie.
End of quote

You owe me two, because I still do. The community at http://starsautohost.org is still kicking.

combined RTS with a weird Sim City like feel to your colonies you established, mixing urban planning and ship development and fleet defense with economic and military takeover....can't new games do this?
End of quote

They could, but IMO they'd wouldn't sell much of it. For doing all you've mentioned one'd need time - a lot of it. But nowadays' fashion is fast action with superb graphich and without much depth. Why would one invest a lot of his time to explore a game that's over in one hour, the winner being the one who clicks the fastest? :( (Old strategist who clicks slowly speaking here ;) )

What about Space Empires? That game is full of detail from what I understand.
End of quote
Being there, done that. Unfortunately lots of stuff (quantity) doesn't make quality. Most of the time it just makes more MM (MicroManagement). It also makes more problems with balancing the game. And SE _IS_ quite unbalanced.

Obviously it's hard to please an old grognard. ;)

BR, Iztok




Reply #11 Top
But nowadays' fashion is fast action with superb graphich and without much depth.
End of quote


Well, in all fairness, a lot of people play games nowadays, but most of said people also have lives, so they cannot realistically spend a lot of time playing games. That's probably why so many games are so much shorter nowadays, though I don't think the devs are complaining.


Mad Cat