Planet Bombing?

from Sins Forums
So I've about go the hang of this game, but there are a few things that are giving me trouble. Mainly that goes with assulting planets other people control and it usually takes too long for me to destroy planets. Planet bombers are very expensive even compared to heavy cruisers.  Using Cap Ships just seems to take too long to bomb a planet where I could use their support abilities elsewhere. This seems to give my opponents the excess time needed to rebuild their fleet and mount (a sometimes effective) counter to a fleet I once had a massive advantage with.

I really have two questions about planet bombing and assault on worlds occupied by an opponent:

1) Are planet bombers worth the cash you spend on them? If not, what should I do instead? I usually run out of creds just building the things, but it seems like they are a necessary expense in order to win a game.

2) At what stage of an assault on a world do I bring them in to occupy and do their time bombing? How many should I use? Sending them in alone just gets them destroyed, but leaving them alone after I move on sometimes leaves them vulnerable to a counter-assault the same way. They are expensive ships to lose just using them to do their job. Should I even be bothering with bombing fringe worlds? Should I chase down his fleet and cripple his homeworld instead, without even bombing outer planets?

I suppose the real question I'm asking is once you realize you have the upper hand what is the most effective way to exploit that advantage and not lose it once you have it? How do you start killing an opponent and go about making sure they end up, indeed, dead?

I am, of course, talking from the perspective of large maps here, I can kill opponents effectively on small maps. Large maps just seem to give people too many places to run and hide.
strategy
18,328 views 28 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Many will tell you after the nerfs to siege frigates that it's worth it just to bring in a dreadnought/other cap to fry the planet. They're right.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
In my opinion this is only a question of time and effectiveness. I think there is no good in attacking an enemy colony, bombing the defense and then just leaving the planet itself unharmed. I always try to destroy the colony and take it for myself because it hurts the enemy economy and strengthens your own. Under that condition it is simply a MUST to use siege frigates because (as you said) bombing a whole planet with only Cap Ships takes far too much time. I usually have about 10 siege frigates in an attack fleet which I bring in as soon as defense is down. Since these 10 siege frigates + 1 or 2 cap ships need a very reasonable time to destroy the planet I usually wait the few seconds until the planet is mine before I move on with the whole fleet.
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
In my opinion the money you would spend to make 5 planet bombers could be used to make a cap ship
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Go with the capital ships, siege frigates are easily destroyed and the AI targets them the second they enter the gravity well.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Go with the capital ships, siege frigates are easily destroyed and the AI targets them the second they enter the gravity well.
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This is why you just bring in the siege frigates after defense is destroyed.

In my opinion the money you would spend to make 5 planet bombers could be used to make a cap ship
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In planet bombing the Cap Ships dont stand that comparison. Siege Frigates make PBDPS (Planet Bombing Damage Per Second) around 20. One Cap Ships lies between 30-50 PBDPS. So 5 siege frigates (nearly same price as 1 cap ship) do 2-4 times more PBDPS than a Cap Ship.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Go with the capital ships, siege frigates are easily destroyed and the AI targets them the second they enter the gravity well.This is why you just bring in the siege frigates after defense is destroyed.In my opinion the money you would spend to make 5 planet bombers could be used to make a cap shipIn planet bombing the Cap Ships dont stand that comparison. Siege Frigates make PBDPS (Planet Bombing Damage Per Second) around 20. One Cap Ships lies between 30-50 PBDPS. So 5 siege frigates (nearly same price as 1 cap ship) do 2-4 times more PBDPS than a Cap Ship.
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that is true but a seige frigrate can hardly defend itself and the bonuses that a cap ship provide are more that worth the siege frigrates.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
i think that siege frigs are a lot more effective than cap ships. cap ships, yes have useful abilities, but only some are useful, some barely even help. now the vasari evacuator is a great cap ship, its got the colonize, an ability to stop the enemies from jumping out of a system, and an ability that does 30 damage a second to an enemy, not to mention the big green vortex of doom.


my strategy is to usually eliminate enemy fleet precense from a planet b4 bringing in the bombers.

if i don't have one of my main fleets attacking the planet i usually make 5-10 siege frigs and group them with like 5 LRMs, 5 garda (anti-strike craft thingy), and 5 heavy frigs.
Note, this will only work against planets that aren't heavily defended, this strategy is definatly best for taking out fringe worlds.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
If you make allies with neighboring factions, then park your fleets on their two best planets (and declare war) you can usually wipe out their civilization in no time...
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Thanks for all the positive responses so far, I see this has really become a conversation about how useful cap ships are in comparison to siege frigates. I'm really talking from the standpoint that I already have some useful Caps and I'm starting to go on an offensive. It slows down my advance when I have to sit in a gravity well for 5 or 10 minutes just bombing a planet using caps. I think that if you're spending your time using caps to bomb you'd benefit from making a few siege frigates bringing them in after you've cleaned the gravity well out of infidels. Even if you just make 2 or 4 it still beats sitting there waiting for your cap to bomb the planet, those useful abilities are only useful if they get used. On a side note, it does give caps a chance to restore their antimatter stores for the next assault, but it gives your opponent a chance to repair his fleet, etc.

Usually in this situation I am a long way off from a re-supply area so my fleet is basically on its own. Any chance to supplement my fleet is most likely going to come in the form of a sister fleet, and not just replacing losses. Sitting and bombing with a cap ship often times gives them the ability to produce a counter fleet to my own. This is why I think it would be best that once you have an offensive to just push down their throat or not at all. Siege frigates, even very few, could help you damage their economy while you go on a full offensive. Who knows, you might even be able to take out a few key structures farther down the line, which would be much more important than taking out a single planet. Just brainstorming...
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
When I've gotten to the point of needing to bomb a planet, what I've found works well is having a secondary (non assault fleet) involving an Evacuator, some kanraks and sentinels for casual defense and about 5-10 sieges. Then, when the Evacuator hits level 6 I'll turn one of those colonized planets into a forward military post and then start building more fleets from there.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
I keep a second fleet of sieges with some frigates for support for clean-up duty only...
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
in an intense multiplayer game, I tend to leave my main cap back to assault the planet while I push forward with my fleet. This lets me continue the offensive while assaulting the planet I just attacked, and a cap ship is hardly a floating piece of meat against a few frigates. The first encounter (the one where I destroy his fleet or vice versa) usually takes out enough of his fleet that the last concern is the world I'm sieging.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

In planet bombing the Cap Ships dont stand that comparison. Siege Frigates make PBDPS (Planet Bombing Damage Per Second) around 20. One Cap Ships lies between 30-50 PBDPS. So 5 siege frigates (nearly same price as 1 cap ship) do 2-4 times more PBDPS than a Cap Ship.
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Except that:
- Capital ships are over 5 times as durable, depending on the type and level.
- Capital ships can contribute to fleet control of the planet, which siege frigates can not do.
- One capital ship replaces 4 siege frigates in fleet supply, not 5.
- Some ship powers flatten planets better than going for pure siege ships. Raze planet and drain planet are cruelly powerful to planets, plus there's a few more.
- Capital ships cost less for their benefits overall.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
For TEC, you want to go with the Dreadnought. Bar none, this is the best planet killer in the game. It can solo an upgraded asteroid in about two minutes at lvl 1 (if you take the planetary bombardment perk). You can't beat it.

Siege ships are good for rolling up planets that the front line has moved passed. They aren't THAT weak -- the AI uses them in numbers to GREAT effect (again, usually attacking worlds that are not on the front line or are otherwise weakly defended). I usually don't build them, tho, during 2v2 or 3v3s -- there isn't time. Besides, it is much simpler to kill the structures in the gravity well than it is to kill the planet. Killing the world is great, but you accomplish the same goal by killing his infrastructure.

You can, if you're frisky, build one or two siege ships with the INTENT of harassing the enemy -- ie, jump in, siege a bit, and when he moves his forces or build defenses you jump out. The purpose isn't to kill the world, but to control his focus. He's now on the defensive -- meanwhile, you do something else (expand, tech up, attack someone,e etc).
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Hi!
it is much simpler to kill the structures in the gravity well than it is to kill the planet. Killing the world is great, but you accomplish the same goal by killing his infrastructure.
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Key statements IMO. Since destroying a planet takes soo long, it's better to wipe clean the orbit of one planet, and just move to another one. Surely the opponent can rebuld, but it will take quite some resources to do so, and he has now only money from planets. Asteroid mines and construction fregates are gone, and if you keep a small force (few fregates to keep destroying newly produces construction fregates and maybe a bomber or two), you can keep his resources low for a long time, while you still expand.

BR, Iztok
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
Except that:
- Capital ships are over 5 times as durable, depending on the type and level.
- Capital ships can contribute to fleet control of the planet, which siege frigates can not do.
- One capital ship replaces 4 siege frigates in fleet supply, not 5.
- Some ship powers flatten planets better than going for pure siege ships. Raze planet and drain planet are cruelly powerful to planets, plus there's a few more.
- Capital ships cost less for their benefits overall.
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But that is not the subject. It's actually not about Cap Ships vs siege frigates but about bombing a planet or not. (and the comparison was not made regarding fleet supply points but regarding resource costs). And if you want to bomb a planet the only useful option is a handful of siege frigates. In my opinion you SHOULD bomb each planet because:
1. only taking out fleet and orbital structures cripples defenders economy = half effect
2. taking out the planet and taking it for yourself cripples defenders economy and strengthens your own = full effect

You simple give away half the benefits of attacking an empire if you do not take over control of the planets you have attacked.

Since destroying a planet takes soo long, it's better to wipe clean the orbit of one planet, and just move to another one
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As I said this is only a question of how many siege frigates you use.

Usually in this situation I am a long way off from a re-supply area so my fleet is basically on its own. Any chance to supplement my fleet is most likely going to come in the form of a sister fleet, and not just replacing losses
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And this is another vital pro for siege frigates. If you destroy and conquer the planets of your enemy you have the chance to build frigate factories near the front line and get a much shorter way for supplies to rebuild your fleets.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
In large maps, I generally have 3 to 5 cap ships by mid-game so I just send them with my fleet, and assault the planet while my fleet goes onwards. Your group of cap ships won't be defeated very quickly and you'll have time to bring in reinforcements if they're attacked by a considerable fleet.

Also, you should be earning quite a fair bit in a large map because of the number of planets you own. Siege frigates shouldn't be that much of a problem for you in terms of cost. And you only need to make a few to supplement your cap ship/s (you should have at least one)
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
I culture kill planets. When everything in the well is dead, I've chases the opponent away and now it's time to siege. What I'll do is leave behind 2-3 ships, and send the rest of the fleet onward to find his fleet and finish it off before it can re-group.

Those ships that are left behind can eliminate constructors.

Then, Build a culture station at your planet which is right next to his. It takes a while, actually longer than a capital ship would take alone, but the perk is that now your entire fleet is free, and his one planet is now useless and is slowly having it's income lowered.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
sieges are most definitely worth it. don't forget that adding caps requires research... expensive research!!!... in cap crews.

whether i go to just wipe out infrastructure or to take planets depends on the situation. If i know i can, i rush through his territory (and i do, because i do recon, hint hint), i'll pick off the frig and cap factories, defenses, and a few other structures (particularly hate broadcast centers) and move on to the next planet. if i need to establish a beach head or choke point, i'll siege, colonize, and defend up.

don't forget, newly established planets actually are a drain until you build them up a bit, especially if they are far away from your home planet. on the other hand, once you take the planet it takes more time for him to win it back and replace that infrastructure.

sometimes i'll colonize and move on without taking out a few platforms, like miners.

basically, adjust your strategy to the situation "on the ground."
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
well iv learnt tht whether or not u want to hav siege frigates depends on ur style of playin.... i normally research quick and build smaller fleets than wat iv seen on some vids.. so i build 2-3 frigates just b4 i attack the first planet.. so by the time they get built and come to the planet most of the defences r closed to being neutralized..
then i use them and my capital ship of tht fleet to bombard the planet while the rest os the cruisers and frigates clean up any small fries attacking the siege frigates..
this also keeps u more ready for any counter attacks..
If in case the frigates arrive when there is still to much fighting then see if u can go to the othr side of the planet out of the way of the planetary defence structures.
even if the rest of the force follows them ur fleet will b betr off with out being shot at by the cannons...

I normally go aftr the outer planets first to keep my economy and research on a roll...
When the time comes to attack an inner colony i hav quite a few phaze lines to jump from.. and by keepin a force at different planets i can intercept any enemy reinforcements... The best planets to capture first r those with only one or two phaze lines in to the planet...
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
Are planet bombers worth the cash? Absolutely. I don't want a Kol tied down doing a job that 4 siege frigates can do better and at roughly the same price, and that's before you're taking cap ship supply research into account.

The key to winning the game is keeping up pressure and momentum on your foes - having another capital ship in your main fleet adds to their problems both psychologically and physically. No way am I going to waste my battleships on bombing planets when they can be hunting down enemy fleets, to be quite honest.

Aye, siege frigates are pretty easy to take out, but if you take a couple of flak frigates with them, the problems you get from fighter aircraft are basically eliminated, especially if you also do hull and armour improvement research.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
Siege frigates take way, way too much cap considering how fragile they are, and that they spend most the time sitting around waiting for you to clear the defenses out.

Capitals are just far more useful for the popcap cost and the bomb damage is not very much less.

I don't ever use siege frigates, I don't see a point when you consider how tough and useful even low lvl capitals are in comparison and when you consider you can level the cap up and it becomes extremely powerful the siege frigates look even worse.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Depends on what team you play as.
If you play as the Vasari, build 1 to 3 Evacuators, then use the (and I quote) "Green Vortex of Doom" to crush planets easily. You get 45 resources a second and more damage than most bombardment methods.
For the other teams, build the bombers.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

Building more than one Evacuator sounds good but how well does it work in practice? I mean, they have to survive to Level 6 in order to be able to slurp planets but opposing players also enjoy harpooning those space whales.