It's getting too massive to still enjoy?

from Sins Forums

So I played my first two games. Just chose a small map with few planets. But already after occupying 3 Planets and 3 Astroid based stations, the fleets produced are getting so massive, that the excitement you had in the beginning with just a few ships, enjoying the battles, is simply lost. The fleets you have to manage and the empire you have to keep an eye on, can only be handled from zoomed out perspective, where the cool grafics and battle effects are nothing more than colored tags. Of course I can zoom in, but if I do, I loose the overview. So for the most part of the game, you basically manage your empire from the galaxy view, moving your ships and fleets like on a checkaboard. It's a great game, but somehow, even on small maps, everything gets overwhelming. The feeling to be in the middle of it, like I have with Homeword, is lost with the massive build ups. It seems as well, that even on normal levels, you have so much cash and materials, that you can trade the crystals on the black maket, without ever having to worry about shortages. And this happened already after occupying just 6 systems. I wonder what it is like, to conquer 50 or more systems? Especially, as it gets boring after having conquered 2 or 3 planets. Just take your massive feelt and move on. That's all there is to it. No special missions, no storry to follow, no events or strange encounters (besids the pirate attacks, which are getting actually on your nerves, after repelling 20 attacks and you know there is no danger to it, except in the beginning stages. Once you have a few defenses, no pirat attack will ever be sucessful). 

Let me know how do you feel about it, and how do you play the game to enjoy it on larger maps? What are some good settings, so that you don't have more credits and material at your disposal than you could ever spend, after just having settled a few systems. Maybe a much more elaborate upkeep system would ensure that you keep an eye on your recources and more importantly not being able to send in 100s of ships that simply kill the "being able to enjoy a battle" effect.

8,487 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
One of the habits I've found I have to get out of in Sins to really enjoy it is my terrible, terrible need to micro-manage. Sins is actually pretty stellar at running itself based on large-scale directives you've laid down when you're otherwise busy-- but learning to trust it to do so can be difficult.

Also, I believe you can actually play the game almost entirely through just the Empire Tree once you get comfortable interpreting it. This is handy for watching battles close-in for the cool factor, but still running things as you need to in other areas... but I'm still getting used to Sins myself, so I'm sure people that know the game better than I do can comment better on this.
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
I actually started with the empire tree, but when the AI wasn't putting all of the structures exactly where I wanted it I started playing with the overveiw look, ignoring everything else when I want to see my fleet of 4 capital ships and I don't know how many frigates and cruisers owning a pirate base.
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Finally , a person who loves the small scale elements in sins. I too understand your point of view. Im very much into the fine detail of sins.

With hugh fleets and runaway incomes , I end up steamrolling or getting steamrolled without needing to think about the consequences. All the variables become insignificant as things get so large that it simply doesnt matter. With smaller numbers of ships , unit control shines and decisions have larger consequences meaning its more important to make sure that you doing the right thing. Forexample in the early game..getting an extra planet is a very risky strategy involving alot of decision making and risk analysis/scouting. Come the larger game.....you just steamroll the militia with your 8 pips of ships , and then send your colony frigate to it without needing to think much.

Its the same with games like Supreme Commander where once I hit +500 metal income , Im literally just waypathing my units into the center the enemy base , and queuing my engineers to build row upon row of powerplanets and nuke launchers.

To find other like-minded players try the online scene with skilled players.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
The `CapsLock' key snaps instantly between the planet view and the galaxy view. Couple this feature with selecting planets/fleets in the empire view and you can zoom immediately to any action.

Just in case anyone had missed that feature.
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
The `CapsLock' key snaps instantly between the planet view and the galaxy view. Couple this feature with selecting planets/fleets in the empire view and you can zoom immediately to any action.Just in case anyone had missed that feature.
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but a video is more valueable than a screen shot
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Finally , a person who loves the small scale elements in sins. I too understand your point of view. Im very much into the fine detail of sins.With hugh fleets and runaway incomes , I end up steamrolling or getting steamrolled without needing to think about the consequences. All the variables become insignificant as things get so large that it simply doesnt matter. With smaller numbers of ships , unit control shines and decisions have larger consequences meaning its more important to make sure that you doing the right thing. Forexample in the early game..getting an extra planet is a very risky strategy involving alot of decision making and risk analysis/scouting. Come the larger game.....you just steamroll the militia with your 8 pips of ships , and then send your colony frigate to it without needing to think much.Its the same with games like Supreme Commander where once I hit +500 metal income , Im literally just waypathing my units into the center the enemy base , and queuing my engineers to build row upon row of powerplanets and nuke launchers. To find other like-minded players try the online scene with skilled players.
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Yes, exactly. You got all the cool features for your ships, especially the capital ships and they are most important in the beginning stages, where every descision and every move you make counts. But it becomes meaningless once you reach a fleet seize where tactics don't matter anymore. Just send your mass of ships into the phase lines and wait for victory on the other side. Sadly, I reach this massive fleet sizes much too early, and would rather not be able to reach them at all. I know that Multiplayer would be much more challanging, but here you really can't enjoy the battles at all; if you loose the overview in multiplayer you loose the game. So in Multiplayer, it's even less enjoyable, when you prefer to look at cinematic ship engagements and small scale tactical battles. I'm still very new to this game and wonder if there are already any good mods in development, or have already been released that might address those issues?



Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Have you tried reducinghte Fleet Size and Economy settings in the game options? Maybe that would get you closer to what you want - - I haven't messed with them myself yet, but they sound like they might let you limit the massiveness and build speed of your fleets.

Or maybe build a custom map with extremely limited resources?
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
The `CapsLock' key snaps instantly between the planet view and the galaxy view. Couple this feature with selecting planets/fleets in the empire view and you can zoom immediately to any action.Just in case anyone had missed that feature.but a video is more valueable than a screen shot
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What do you mean by saying a video is worth more than a screen shot?

I'm not referring to taking a screen shot, I'm just pointing out that the `CapsLock' key on your keyboard toggles instantly between overview galaxy mode and individual planet view where you can watch your battles/micromanage.

That is one of the main points the OP was making, that he mostly plays from overview galaxy mode.

Mouse scroll zooming takes time, so you tend to zoom less, the more things you have to do, but the `CapsLock' key on your key board toggles instantly between the galaxy and planet view, it takes no time. It is just a way to enjoy the close up action more often, that's all I was saying, in case anyone wasn't familiar with that feature.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Have you tried reducinghte Fleet Size and Economy settings in the game options? Maybe that would get you closer to what you want - - I haven't messed with them myself yet, but they sound like they might let you limit the massiveness and build speed of your fleets.Or maybe build a custom map with extremely limited resources?
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Haven't seen those options yet, but will try them straight away. Thanks for the info Bruce!
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
The `CapsLock' key snaps instantly between the planet view and the galaxy view. Couple this feature with selecting planets/fleets in the empire view and you can zoom immediately to any action.Just in case anyone had missed that feature.but a video is more valueable than a screen shotWhat do you mean by saying a video is worth more than a screen shot?I'm not referring to taking a screen shot, I'm just pointing out that the `CapsLock' key on your keyboard toggles instantly between overview galaxy mode and individual planet view where you can watch your battles/micromanage.That is one of the main points the OP was making, that he mostly plays from overview galaxy mode.Mouse scroll zooming takes time, so you tend to zoom less, the more things you have to do, but the `CapsLock' key on your key board toggles instantly between the galaxy and planet view, it takes no time. It is just a way to enjoy the close up action more often, that's all I was saying, in case anyone wasn't familiar with that feature.
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I meant, you'd have to zoom out again right away, hence getting a quick picture of the action rather than watching it fully. I have no idea how you people get the time to watch those battles without letting everything else slip away.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Clicking the mouse wheel button also switches from galaxy to planet view instantly.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
While I can certainly see the appeal of humongous battle fleets fighting it out, having to control them all takes alot of that joy back. I think this to be a criticism of many modern games... They start out wonderful and end up a handful as you try to keep 100 different things in the air at once, especially when any one of them can start you down the path to ruin if you miss them.

I tend to play medium games with 4 opponents at most, simply because the fleets get horrifically big. Any hope of managing them takes away any enjoyment of watching the battle, and while the AI does a decent job of coordinating they are no match for the skilled player. I have yet to go to small fleets, but if I want to get any bigger map wise, it would be a must.

I believe this to be the major stumbling block to combining the Real Time and the Turn Based. Until they can devise a way to control all of the action while allowing you to sit away from it enjoy it it will continue to be one.

What puzzles me is that it really isn't all that complex to have this... IF it were me:

When two fleets meet for battle: Time in the rest of the galaxy would slow, to a tenth or a quarter of normal while the battle was going on, allowing me to immerse in it without losing much, if anything in the game world yet keeping the "real time" moving...

A tactics console would be employed with ship types and groups. Actions for all fleet, groups and ships would be present as well as specific formations and targeting priorities. It would be customizable so the user could write his own strategies and tactics. This would allow you to effectively micro-manage all of your battles one time. Once the tactics were in, they would be your SOP. From there, tweaking the strategy and tactics would be done for each battle, but the repetitive finding ships, assigning targets etc would be eliminated. You would be able to trust the ships to do what they should, because they are using your strategy and tactics, not the computers... And you would be able to choose whether to go in and get involved or let the battle play out and watch. The beauty is you don't give up the control, just when and how you use it changes.

With this, directing a 200 ship fleet becomes manageable and allows for the player to actually enjoy the battles instead of having to go in and repeatedly give the same commands over and over, having his time monopolized.

Jest a thought.

T