Planet Upgrades: Should You upgrade the homeworld? & Payoff Times Edited: 15/7/08

from Sins Forums

So there's the question of when will my planet have paid itself off? Logic says that asteroids will pay themself off the quickest, but what about Lava, Ice, Deserts, and Terrans?

I want to clarify a lot of the simplifications I've been making.

To start, I consider resources as part of paying off the planet. I consider 1 resource = 4.5 cred. The market always fluctuates, so if you're watching for better conversion rates, that means you're reducing the time I'm coming up with. Kudos to you if you do, but I have to make this simplification.

Also, for the sake of simplification, I'm saying that the mines kick in once the planet is in the green. I know this is going to throw off the calculation, but it keeps the equations I'm using simpler and makes my life easier. This probably is going to throw off the actual numbers by +/- 5%.

When planets are colonized, they start with 3 pop-ish. I don't know about you guys, but in the very early stages I tend to lose that to the lone pirate that manages to get a seige burst off on my planet. I'm going to neglect the starting pop, but since the amount of time spent in the red is 105 secs (45 tier one upgrade, 60 s tier two ), I'm going to say once the planet has entered the green, it has 10 population and the mines are built. Yes, I know, oversimplification, but...

I feel the final answer I give you will be ballpark correct. I hate getting a mathematicians answer, so I feel the numbers I give are at worst +/-10% from the actual time, and I believe my numbers are really +/-5% overall.

Well, they're all wonderfully complicated and here's what I've come up with so far.



Currently Re-formulating Chart



I put a lot of thought into it, and I'll gladly explain the logic behind it if someone wants me to, but I've checked it as much as I can, and frankly I don't want to post how I did it because that'll take a while.

Upgrading Your Homeworld: Worth it?


The Big Planet upgrade though that's worth explaining, however, is the first and biggest one you can get, the lvl 4 pop upgrade for your Homeworld at the start of a game (assuming you're not playing one of the few preset maps that starts you with a desert)

If you go in and check, 1 pop generates .03 cred/sec. You can't go by the 11.4 on a homeworld and divide it by 190 b/c the homeworld get's a homeworld credit bonus. So, you have to take into consideration three time periods of the upgrade.

1. The actual upgrade period. There is no credit generation, and the lvl 4 is not teched until 90 seconds have passed.
2. The Population growth period. Population grows at .1pop/s. That means 900 seconds (you get +90 pop with this upgrade) will pass during this period.
3. The Full Bonus Period. This is what you get permanently after 990 seconds (16 min 30 sec). It's an upgrade of 2.7 cred/s to your economy.

So how long does it take to pay itself of?

Well, during the 900 second growth period, you can call the average income 1.35 cred/s, so that means 1215 credits are generated during this time.

The actual cost of this upgrade is about 2775 credits. I say 2775 credits because it costs 750 credits, 225 metal, and 225 crystal (450 resources net). You can sell and buy resources at roughly 4.5 cred per 1 resource. (When you sell you have to get someone else to buy it though)

This means that after 990 seconds, you still have 1560 credits net to make. That means you have an additional 577.7 seconds to wait until this upgrade FINALLY pays itself off. So, how long does it take net?

990+577.7= 1567.7 seconds or roughly 26.1 minutes.

I do not consider the three mines you get to start as part of paying off this upgrade. EVERYONE gets them. The only difference between a player who gets the homeworld upgrade and one who doesn't is just this very expensive upgrade.

So moral of the story, only get this upgrade when you know you won't be seeing an opponent for 26.1 minutes. If you think you're going to rush someone or get rushed, save yourself the resources for this upgrade and spend them elsewhere.

Eventually you should get this upgrade. I don't think anyone would argue against this because for it's price it's about the same as getting a tradeport and it generates a little bit more. I would say if it's a rush map, the ideal time to get this upgrade is AFTER you're pretty much 100% certain you've got your little 1v1 on your portion of the map in the bag, tech it, and then go to help an ally.

No 1 v 1 except Point Blank will be done in 26 minutes, but the battle can be decided within that timeframe. See what I mean?

strategy
18,784 views 29 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Nice Analysis! I hope you are doing this with a spreadsheet and not killing yourself. Once you get your methodology down, you should be able to just plug in the numbers for any planet type.

Tragically, many people will look at this and say, "Great, when should I upgrade my planets, or are trade ports better???"
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I would say not to wait, as the income generated is greater the sooner the upgrade is established. If you're in a cutthroat expert game where your opponent is a couple of jumps away, then you could make the argument, but most games last well beyond the 27 minute mark, and by that time the upgrade is generating full profit.

I'm also a big believer in the concept that an unused credit is a wasted credit. If you aren't planning on a kamikazi all out rush, then just pocketing those credits wont do much for your civilization anyways (of course there are extinuating circumstances).


On another note, I've heard people say that trade ports are a better option than the forth upgrade, because they only take (supposedly) 9 minutes to pay themselves off. I think that people are failing to factor in the cost of both the labs and research, not to mention opportunity cost. Those slots may take up slots that are needed for other buildings, such as war labs, factories, etc.


For the noobs reading the thread, a few things that may make a much bigger difference in your game- Don't stop building ships, ever. If you have 300 metal, 100 crystal, and 200 credits, sell 200 metal to get the creds needed to build 2 more ships. This game may have many mechanics that all lead to victory, but the first and foremost path is carrying a bigger stick than the other guy. I play very few games where I don't hold the #1 fleet score for most of the game, and in 150ish games, I have about 3-4 losses total.

Also, don't forget teamwork is paramount when you have teammates. This may seem like a "Duh" sort of statement, but that 2000 cred that you have sitting in the middle of your two buds on either side of you is going to waste in your bank account. If you can't bring ships to the fight immidiately because of how far away from the fight you are, bring your resources to the fight and give them to the guys around you. The firepower gets there sooner overall.

(I only post this stuff because noobs look to Amish's posts for tips, so I'm trying to maintain the status quo :p)
WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Hey cool info Amish, I look forward to seeing any info about techs like improved planet cap, and planet growth rate techs too. Thanks a bunch for this!
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Raging, thanks for the post; thanks for the pop generation rate and credits per pop rate as well. I will run a quick analysis to confirm your calculations, but I would say they look pretty good. One thing I would note is that I would use a 1 resource = 3.75 credits. I will run an analysis with both though, because it might be race dependant (for instance, vasari would probably be a 1 resource = 3 race while TEC might be 1=5).

As a note, I don't remember what the penalties are (i.e., if you don't upgrade, your income is negative); they are different for asteroids and planets I believe. Could someone post those? Could someone also post the starting population level and the population limits for each planet type? Thanks
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Half of this thread is populated by DT members.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Lol, good point
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
I'm reformatting everything. This is kinda complicated. It needs some calculus of all things.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I'm reformatting everything. This is kinda complicated. It needs some calculus of all things.
End of quote



And we probably both thought we'd never have a use for it in the 'real world' . I guess an engineering degree does pay off.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Considering 1/4th of DT are engineers, I'd say we're set there too. LOL
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Another thing you could figure this out for is the Tech Planet Upgrade Research...

(I'm playing a modded version that starts with a civilian lab, as well as a few other goodies that you wouldn't normally start with)...

...It's your Homeworld Afterall... (to the tune of "It's a small world, afterall")
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
oops, I may need to clarity it being the Research Tree stuff, just in case I didn't get the sequence of words just right...

Since building a research station is part of the cost of Tree research...
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Ok Raging, I finished my calcs. My spreadsheet is on google documents, check it out and please confirm I did it correct. By the way, ice and volcanics are different, slightly.
WWW Link

EDIT: Arg. I forgot to subtract the starting income. You'll have to wait until 9pm EST tonight for me to correct the analysis.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Howdidudothat - When I try to access your spreadsheet, I'm told that I don't have permission. How come?
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Probably because this was the first time I have attempted using Google Documents and didn't know I have to change the permissions settings. If you know how, please let me know, because the only thing I see there is to publish it. If the Google Documents thing doesn't work, I'll just post an Excel spreadsheet somewhere on a random webpage. Oh, and I won't be able to change the permissions settings either until 9pm tonight; Google Documents doesn't like Internet Explorer v6.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Ok, I think I got it so the spreadsheet can be viewed by everyone, but you have to use this link:
Spreadsheet Link

Please let me know if it doesn't work.

Anyway, I did not analyze the mines since I wanted to know how long it will take for the upgrade to payback, and upgrading does not impact resource extraction. The minimum population is the population that the max the level prior to upgrading will allow, so when you first colonize a planet, it will likely be less (usually 5). What is really interesting is how long the upgrade of a roid takes to pay for itself. Obviously, I would recommend upgrading the roid anyway, because the penalty cost will eat your economy alive. Again, this analysis simply shows how long it will take for the population increase to pay for itself.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
"When planets are colonized, they start with 3 pop-ish. I don't know about you guys, but in the very early stages I tend to lose that to the lone pirate that manages to get a seige burst off on my planet"

Isn't it more efficient to kill the siege frigate before colonizing? My usual procedure early game is to target fire the siege frigate with my cap and fighter (assuming i have a colony cap), then send the cap to colonize when the siege frigate is almost dead. The fighter finishes off the siege frigate right as the planet gets colonized. Then I take care of the light frigate before moving on.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
I always upgrade my home planet. I try to upgrade planets as soon as I get them because I don't see why you wouldn't. If a planet is not upgraded, I think it has 1,500 health. If it is fully upgraded, it has about 6,000 health. That's a big difference :CONGRAT:
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
@ Snowman - The difference in hit points has nothing to do with this post.

Additionally, I don't think anyone would disagree with upgrading the population limit. The point of this post was to show how long it would take to pay off. For instance, if your opponent is 1 jump away, you should not upgrade the planet.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
Half of this thread is populated by DT members.
End of quote


What's a DT member? Excuse the lame question, but I dont play Sins that often at the moment - am waiting for the the 1.1 release.

Thanks.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
What's a DT member?
End of quote

I'm thinking the Dream Team clan.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
Half of this thread is populated by DT members.What's a DT member?
End of quote


We are: [DT] Dream Team You'll probably start to see DT folks when you come play the game in online multiplayer.



Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

I just took a look at the spreadsheet. It was enlightening. Thanks a lot for doing all of that work, Raging Amish and Howdidudothat.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Thanks for the answers :)
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
I'm new to this game but I have a tendency to want to upgrade my planets to the fullest asap. I didn't do any number crunching but I wanted to make the most out of the territory I own sooner. As for someone mentioning the wasted credits piling up, I have the same belief but if someone is not upgrading their planet I am assuming they are dumping their resources into construction a fleet.