Learning from Mistakes: How I Have Annalyzed the Battle

How the records of my most recent battle are very confusing.

Ok, as some of you know I am a very frequent TEC player. I sometimes play as Advent or Vasari, but for the most part I play TEC.

Yesterday I had my biggest battle yet over Halleria in one of the medium or small maps. My ally, a Vasari player, had come under attack and I came to assist him.

The Ships

Me:

Kol Battleship: 2
Sova Carrier: 1
Dunov Battlecruiser: 2
Marza Dreadnought: 1
Cielo Command Cruiser: 2
Kodiak Heavy Cruiser: 10
Hoshika Robotics Cruiser:  10
Percheron Light Carrier: 12
Garda Flak Frigate: 24
Acrova Scout Frigate: 20
Cobalt Light Frigate: 18
Krosov Siege Frigate: 10
Javelis LRM Frigate: 15


Vasari:

Skiranta Carrier: 2
Jarraasul Navigator (Space Egg of Doom): 1
Antorak Marauder: 1
Vulkoras Desolator: 3
Kortul Devastator:1
Skarovas Enforcer: 8
Serevun Overseer: 10
Stilakus Subverter: 14
Lasurak Transporter: 6
Junsurak Sentinel: 20
Jikara Navigator: 24
Ravastra Skirmisher: 20
Kanrak  Assailant: 15
Karrastra Destructor: 8

Advent:

Radiance Battleship: 2
Halcyon Carrier: 2
Rapture Battlecruiser: 3
Progenitor Mothership: 1
Revelation Battlecruiser: 2
Destra Crusader: 8
Domina Subjugator: 10
Iconus Guardian: 15
Aeria Drone Host: 12
Defense Vessel: 18
Seeker Vessel: 20
Disciple Vessel Primary: 22
Illuminator Vessel (Dun dun DUN): 10
Purge  Vessel: 12


The Battle


As you can see, everything was even but one thing: The Advent had the most Capital Ships.

I had lost 1 Dunov Battlecruiser, 1 Cielo Command Cruiser, 2 Kodiak Heavy Cruisers, 3 Hoshika Robotics Cruisers, 3 Percheron Light Carriers, 7 Garda Flak Frigates,  5 Acrova Scout Frigates, 8 Cobalt Light Frigates, 3 Krosov Siege Frigates, and 3 Javelis LRM Frigates.

As you can see from my casualties, I lost almost 40% of my forces. The Vasari, however, suffered much worse.

They lost a Skiranta Carrier, 1 Vulkoras Desolator, 3 Skarovas Enforcers, 3 Serevun Overseers, 4 Stilakus Subverters, 2 Lasorak Transporters, 6 Junsurak Sentinels, 7 Jikara Navigators, 4 Ravastra Skirmishers, 3 Kanrak Assailants, and 3 Karrastra Destructors. And from that, I calculate they lost roughly just over 50% of their starships. The Advent suffered just about 24% of their fleet if I did it correctly. Not a lot. If you want, I will later post their casualties.


The Outcome

Although we did suffer almost 75% more casualties than the Advent together, we did manage to force them out through additional reinforcements. For what remained of two great fleets, only about 80 remained in all.

As you can see, you must be thinking me of an extremely good player as a TEC, because most of you have been critisizing the TEC on how they are so hard to command. For me it's easy, but to you you might think me a god or something. 

I'm not.

I am a fair player as the TEC. I lost about 40% of my ships. In another post I saw someone lost some ships, and I calculated they lost only 30% of their forces, if not, maybe around 25% or less. And there were more ships in that battle. Meaning, he's better than me.

Now, someone might say the reason me and my Vasari ally won was because of our partnership and because I came to his aid. I don't look at it that way.

He's my view: we won because we had twice as many ships.

Well not exactly twice, but we did outnumber the Advent attacks but much.


The Annalysis/Conclusion

The way I see it, the battle was pretty much a 50:50 chance of luck. They had to attack that planet by chance, because there were multiple Missile Platforms there (which were destroyed nonetheless) and the Vasari just happened to have half of a rescue and recovery team because they needed to rescue and recover (obviously) a small amount of ships on an Advent planet. So it really wasn't a 50:50, it was more a 70:30. Because if the R & R fleet wasn't there, we would've been screwed to hell. If I wasn't there, they would've been screwed to hell.

Either way, if we didn't have the amount of ships we did, Halleria would've been lost.

And my biggest fleet ever created, destroyed.

But thankfully it wasn't. Out of my six capital ships I only lost 1. 1 of 6 is not that great.

The Vasari lost 2 of 8 capital ships, which can be brought down to 1/4, or 1 of 4. Meaning, they lost more capital ships than me.

Now, I'm open to positive and negative comments here. Critisize, discuss, whatever.



7,911 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top
Small or Medium map with 6 caps and 8 caps. Are you playing hermit style?
I would have steamrolled you before you got your 2nd cap out.

Sorry if my post sounds negative, but I am calling it as I see it.
Reply #2 Top
Looks like a singleplayer game...

What mistakes did you do , and what have you actually learnt except :

"He's my view: we won because we had twice as many ships."
Reply #3 Top
Why so many scouts by that point and time? I think the Advent player had the superior fleet there, but like you said, he was outnumbered. I don't really understand why he had 20 scouts though, nor why he had so few Illums...
Reply #4 Top
Hi!
Garda Flak Frigate: 24
...
Javelis LRM Frigate: 15
End of quote

Halcyon Carrier: 2
...
Aeria Drone Host: 12
End of quote

Umm, that's a strange combo. Why did you build so many Flaks and so few LRMs agaist 20 or so strike crafts? The numbers should be at least reverse, if not significantly in favor of LRMs.

The Advent had the most Capital Ships.
End of quote

Don't forget Advent has some mighty fleet-killing combos on their capitals. Cleansing Brilliance with Malice, and Vengeance with Animosity. Add there the Repell and you two were IMO lucky to survive at all.

BR, Iztok




Reply #5 Top
Why so many scouts by that point and time? I think the Advent player had the superior fleet there, but like you said, he was outnumbered. I don't really understand why he had 20 scouts though, nor why he had so few Illums...
End of quote


AI doesnt know/care that illum ownz, he prefers diciples/scouts :P


on average i'd say, you've got a nice fleet

as advice on how to improve it for online (and even singleplayer) games:

CAP SHIPS

Capital ships are the most powerfull ship avaible
with their superior abilities. high health/shields and high damage they win from any frigate/cruiser 1 on 1 (you can make that 5 on 1 btw :) )

however building one is costtly, takes time, and even more time to bring one to the field and gain levels.

for this Capital ships are used not as a weaopon platform, but as a support ship.
this means that you do not use capital ships as your main weaopons, they are strong yes.. but start calculating cost/upkeep cost etc.etc compared to what you could have bought with it.... its just not worth it

its abilities however are monstrously strong, especialy on high levels...
having alot of capital ships wil spread experience, thus lowering the pace in wich your cap ships level, thus making them weaker

in most of my games i make it to about 2/3 cap ships supporting a huge fleet made up of carriers/flak/LRF/HC/over 30% utility/clas 1 friagtes/ and in special (racial) occasions Repair cruisers...

this fleet under the influence of 2/3 cap ships easily wins a fleet made up of alot of capital ships

Cap ships are strong, but useless without ALOT of friendly ships where they can use their helpfull abilites onto
(every cap ship does something unique that helps the fleet in some way, to much capitals wil only reduce the effetiveness of those abilities





FRIGATES And CRUISERS


easier to explain, they're soft lil ships that feed upon the abilities of a capital ship,thus making themselves stronger. without a capital ship frigates or cruisers are alot less powerfull, so defend you cap ship!!! even if it means sacrificing cruisers/ frigates


some cruisers give aditional aid, repair/longer range,accuracy etc. these are a nice addon for mid to late games,

most frigates/cruisers are meant purely for damage,
Heavy Cruisers are the ultimate damage doërs in short range,
whilst LRF's do high damage from longer ranges,
having a few of both (50 / 50) = stronger then 100% cruiser or 100% LRF

this doesnt count in the ammount of ships!!! calculate the cost + build time!!!




so all this together (finally)  :) 

Cap ships are Badass Support ships, dont mass em.

Frigates and Cruisers are Badass damage doërs that, when upgraded have some pretty neat tricks (mostly the more ships the more powerfull the trick becomes) they dont even get close to a well used cap ship ability tough...
Reply #6 Top
Vasari:

Skiranta Carrier: 2
Jarraasul Evac (Space Egg of Doom): 1
Antorak Marauder: 1
Vulkoras Desolator: 3
Kortul Devastator:1
Skarovas Enforcer: 8
Serevun Overseer: 10
Stilakus Subverter: 14
Lasurak Transporter: 6
Junsurak Sentinel: 20
Jikara Navigator: 24
Ravastra Skirmisher: 20
Kanrak Assailant: 15
Karrastra Destructor: 8
End of quote


Why does this guy have 10 Overseers and 14 Stikalus? In a giant battle his fleet should more so look like this...


Skiranta Carrier: 2
Jarraasul Evac (Space Egg of Doom): 2
Antorak Marauder: 0
Vulkoras Desolator: 3
Kortul Devastator:1
Skarovas Enforcer: 20
Serevun Overseer: 5
Stilakus Subverter: 10
Lasurak Transporter: 6 (this thing is debatable)
Junsurak Sentinel: 5
Jikara Navigator: 5
Ravastra Skirmisher: 10
Kanrak Assailant: 30
Karrastra Destructor: 0

The Assailants and the Enforcers are the kill units in the Vasari fleet. You can crowd control your opponent till you blue in the face but if you don't have the DPS to do anything well... you are gonna lose. As for the destructors... those things suck in a fleet engagement. Their armor is only a step above tissue paper and thier damage is horrible.


That dudes fleet was terrible.. I have no compunction saying that i could probably bring it down with just 1 Kortul, 2 Desolators, 1 egg, and a Skinatra. Capships are important but the Enforcers and Assailants are the mail fist of the fleet.






Reply #7 Top
Kol Battleship: 2
Sova Carrier: 1
Dunov Battlecruiser: 2
Marza Dreadnought: 1
Cielo Command Cruiser: 2
Kodiak Heavy Cruiser: 10
Hoshika Robotics Cruiser: 10
Percheron Light Carrier: 12
Garda Flak Frigate: 24
Acrova Scout Frigate: 20
Cobalt Light Frigate: 18
Krosov Siege Frigate: 10
Javelis LRM Frigate: 15
End of quote


Nice fleet size, but I would adjust it a bit. You have way to many low DPS vs hull point ships. As stated above, the backbones of a TEC fleet are LRM's and Kodiaks, but these ships are outnumbered by light carriers, scouts, cobalts, and almost matched by flaks. Not saying you don't need a few of each for thier own uses, but we're talking meat and potatoes here.

So...

The Carriers have to go. Period. Never had a use for them, even using pure fighters against bombers. Trade out the Sova for a Marza. Dunovs have repair, but so do the Hoshikos. You don't need both. Drop both Dunovs, get an Akkan (Ion bolt and colonization) for the first. Get another Marza for the second. Trade the Percherons for Kodiaks. Why 24 Gardas ? You can drop half of them, at least, especially with Kol's flak burst. 20 Scouts ? I usually keep 3, but they're busy out scouting, never with the fleet. Seige frigates are pretty useless in an attack/defense fleet. In a cleanup/colonizing fleet, yes. You have 6 caps here, use them to clear planets instead, especiaslly the Marza's. Drop a few cobalts, you don't need 18. Finally, you can never have to many LRM's.

Keeping it a simple Cap for cap, HC for HC, and frigate for frigate swap, the new battle order is :

Kol Battleship: 2
Akkan Battlecruiser: 1
Marza Dreadnought: 3
Cielo Command Cruiser: 2
Kodiak Heavy Cruiser: 22
Hoshika Robotics Cruiser: 10
Garda Flak Frigate: 10
Cobalt Light Frigate: 10
Javelis LRM Frigate: 67

Basic three group/level attack force. Meat shields ( AKA Kodiaks ) up front, centered on the caps. Roughly 800 dps not counting the 2 Kol's rail guns for another 4800 points at the opening stages! Count them down one cap in the first 20-30 seconds. Hoshikos and Cielo's in the middle, supporting either group. LRM's to the rear, raining in destruction, covered by the flaks and cobalts. If they want to dance long range, the LRMs will get it done. Close up knife fight, your HC's and caps will go toe to toe. Decent anti-fighter/bomber. Highly survivable.

Use the caps as a group to stun ( ion bolt ), then kill individual enemy caps. If they try to run, you know at least one wont make it due to the Ion Bolt. The Marzas work great with missile barrage from the center of enemy frigate/HC groups, ESPECIALLY WITH MULTIPLE MARZA's. You now have three. Frigates will die like flies around them. My favorite tactic to use on the pirate base, BTW, with 4 Marzas.

Use the Kodiaks like a pack of mad dogs on the caps as well. Cielo's adding the targeting/damage buff. Hoshikos repairing your caps. At least one will be getting hammered.

The LRM's as long range snipers. They should be popping HC's like cheap bubble wrap. Or use them as a group against an enemy cap, seperate from the one the HC's and Caps are mauling. Cobalts can target whoever attacks the LRM's, or use the anti-mattter drain against the cap the LRM's are hitting. Gardas keeping fighters off the LRM's.
Reply #8 Top
we could always just speculate which player sucks more by the lineup there. I think that would be the more productive conversation. lol
Reply #9 Top
I had a game once huge ffa or 2v2v2v2 or something, can't remember.

Anyway my ally who was no doubt a very inexperienced player, (of the irritating kind that thinks he knows best) built ONLY cap ships...

Throughout the game I try to explain to him the notion that cap ships melt when faced with 20-30 Illums alone, tried to point out the cost vs firepower / HPs ratio, etc. Every time I said something he'd have some "smart" response like "Not if you can disable them ;-)" or "don't worry you'll see ;-)"...

Needless to say his expansion was slow and when finally after about two hours he participated in an battle with me, which was I think he's first encounter with anything other than pirates, his 5 or so caps disappeared in about 20 seconds (it was a huge Epic battle).

So I asked him "Now do you understand?" His response was "yeah" and shortly after he quit.

The moral of the story is that many players still hold the misconception that frigates are nothing and caps are everything. This misconception is mostly fuelled by playing single player against Sins' sucky AI.
Reply #10 Top
playing against Hard and unfair AI is quite nice
I'm learning a lot of things from them, like:
1) the ability to adjust to my conquering fleet or
2) sending flaks as scouts when my territory is full with hangars(fighters) and PJIs,
3) retreating when the odds are not in his favor
... and many more I don't remember now
Reply #11 Top
You'd learn all that faster and better by playing a human player.

No experienced Sins player will find the "unfair" AI challenging.
Reply #12 Top
For me it's easy, but to you you might think me a god or something.
End of quote


No I really don't...

Reply #13 Top
If you had relocated all those resources you spent on the scouts, the cobalts, the siege frigates (WTF?) and the flak (24? Try 0, use fighters instead) and put everything on Javelis, you would have done much MUCH better. I don't say Kodiaks because I dunno the stage of the game you're at.
Reply #14 Top
bleh its the AI, the fact that you and your ally lost so much in that battle just shows the how bad the ai is. Because if it was better then your ally ai would have been better keeping the losses to a minimal percentage of your current fleet.