How is the game on Hard??

Hi!
On hard AIs use "full brains", and get ~35% more money from planets.

BR, Iztok

^^^I thought that was the Insane setting. I don't think the comp gets an income bonus on hard.

Yeah, hard AI doesn't get an income bonus. That's the unfair AI.

Lies lies lies! Hard AI is just better AI, it's UNFAIR AI that gets more resources/money. AFAIK, Ships/Structures are always the same, it's just resource bonuses that they get on Unfair (the AI is the same as it is on Hard).


Easy AI = Training wheels.

Normal AI = You're on your own but an adult is still around ready and waiting with a bandage for your boo-boo if you fall.

Hard AI = You're on your own, and you have a few ramps to start jumping off of.

Unfair AI = Stunt Course.

I personally prefer Hard AI just for the fact that I don't like the idea of the game being made artificially more difficult. The good news is, the Hard AI seems to be improved with pretty much every patch SD/IC put out... which I applaud, whole heartedly.

And let's not forget the final, most challenging difficulty setting:

Multiplayer.



-Itharus

Unfair AI is more difficult in the beginning only, when your own income is barely trickling in. Once you get to the point where you can run a few factories non-stop and researching at the same time (not all that difficult), any advantage the Unfair gets is pretty much gone

The trick is getting to that point

On any difficulty level, the AI sucks (no offense developers). An AI in any non-trivial game that can beat a human player has yet to be born.

Create an account on Ironclad Online and play online against real humans. Once you did that you'll never want to play against an AI anymore.

Rak; some people like slower paced games. I've tried ironclad and hated it. Too much competition.

I disagree Raknor. I've been playing RTS since Dune 2 and hate playing other players, some of us are just different.

Being tank rushed, Zerg rushed, LRM rushed, it's all the same. Most players aren't even creative enough to come up with their own strategy. They just read what's on the forums, copy that and if you counter it...they're more boring than the AI. At least it doesn't whine about "lag" or "bad planet arrangement" etc.

I and my friends have played 100+ sins games online and still comp stomp with at least 5x unfair. I'd rather have a silent cheating PC than a whiny human.

Kraashar I agree.

Once we did a comp stomp and a ton of players whined that the ai would be too easy to beat- Boy, were they wrong, turns out the players that didn't want the ai most were beaten easiest.

The ai won of course, due to players leaving, etc but I still thought it was good.

A more adaptive ai would be great- like if it notices that LRMs are being spammed the ai starts making the counters for that spam, etc.

And if everyone is against the ai, the ai will try to rush the players, etc, would be great.

Hi!

Please check this thread for the proof you're wrong.

BR, Iztok

That's far from difinitive proof

Quote sesmet333:


The hard AI doesn't get a boost. It's only smarter, so it may look that way.

Hi!


Sigh... Do you need to see it with your own eyes? Easy:
- start a game with "normal" AI, don't do anything, quit after 3 minutes, check the "Credits income from planets" (the third) graph.
- start a game with "hard" AI, don't do anything, quit after 3 minutes, check the "Credits income from planets" graph.

Still not a definitive proof?

BR, Iztok

Straight from the 1.03 change log.



Definitive proof that only unfair cheats.

iztok: the difference in income between normal AI and hard AI in your experiment is due to efficiency not due to cheating...

the normal AI doesn't optimize as well as the hard one.

Except for chess...

All of you who deny that Hard AI cheats on resource, you are badly naive and stubborn to refuse test this even though it take mere less than 10 minutes to do this.


Stop saying BS, sit on the chair, launch the game, play single player with 2-players map, you and normal AI, and run the game like 2 minutes (in this time, there is no frigging way to 'optimize' resource income, right?) After two minutes, finish the game and go to 'income from planets' section, and you will see income graph.

Do the same thing on you and hard AI, and you WILL notice that hard AI gains extra resource boost. You can repeat the experiment if you like.


Again, in two minutes there is no way to get second planet to gain more resource (not to mention there would be some decline since it is underdeveloped.) Now tell me it is not resource cheat.



Patch change log means NOTHING, by the way, until being confirmed in ACTUAL game. Merely pointing out one of change log, not testing yourself, is simply lame and the stupidest way to say 'you are wrong'.


YOU are wrong. Hard AI indeed cheats on resource, ok guys?

Normal doesn't upgrade population as fast. Enough said.

This proves that you don't play this game. Man, play the damn game FIRST before posting about ingame issues.

You have absolutely no idea how early infrastructure/population upgrade on home planet, and this is not a point anyway, since the difference on income is viably shown even before the upgrade is finished.

I hate to become a broken record machine, but I say again.

[Stop saying BS, sit on the chair, launch the game, play single player with 2-players map, you and normal AI, and run the game like 2 minutes (in this time, there is no frigging way to 'optimize' resource income, right?) After two minutes, finish the game and go to 'income from planets' section, and you will see income graph.

Do the same thing on you and hard AI, and you WILL notice that hard AI gains extra resource boost. You can repeat the experiment if you like.]

*Cough* Dawn of War *cough*.....

AI(s) have a long history in most games of being made more superior simply by increasing available resources and asset qualities, otherwise they're typically dumb as door nails. (Door nails might actually be smarter overall; at least they stick around until they absolutely get ripped out.! hehe.)

On the other hand, AI's could be handicapped and made dumber by changing their operating system to... lets say Windows 32-bit/64-bit OS or made smarter by using anything else! Who knew that there’s life beyond Microsoft? lol.

Single player - It would be nice to see the SINS AI seek out real combat and not act, mostly, defensive against its human opponent or rely too much on basic probability of success statistics to launch a decent offensive. The AI is too easy to manipulate.. particularly during Pirate raid bidding…
I never get hit by pirates, unless, I’m synchronizing the destruction of their base or because I don’t care and have too much fire power to avert loosing any bounty credits.

I have won more games of varying types over the years, simply by, when my opponent thinks I'm superior to themselves when in fact I'm not. Like the Trojan horse scenario... give a little take a lot! There is an old expression and analogy that would help SIN’s AI's act smarter: Stop watching the score board and play baseball... Because, how can you succeed in playing baseball by just looking around at the scoreboard to determine what to do next? Until you get right on the field and in to the action… the possibilities are too huge to consider.

My suggestion is to create an AI that takes risks – (not based solely on probability of success and linear scripted rules). An AI that can flush out an opponents main force away from a particular target of interest so as to strike that target hard with a secondary force. Make fake attacks to gain the upper-hand: phase jump to taunt an opponents and distract them from what you’re really up to!


Wow.. enough said! Time to get playing…   
My thoughts.. not necessarily yours.

No, we just don't buy, as definitive proof, that because the income chart of the Hard AI is better than a Normal AI's that *must* mean Hard gets an income bonus. It's a flawed conclusion to flawed logic. It may be true, it may not be, but what the graph offers is not "proof", but at best supporting evidence to a theory

*facepalm



...No wonder you guys do not understand what Iztok Bitenc is saying..... I seriously recommend you all to read some books to improve your reading skill.


Where do he and I compare Normal AI and Hard AI only? The test he gives is comparing YOUR income rate vs AI's, and if you do that, you will see Normal AI's income rate exactly follows yours, while Hard AI is simply out of course in first place.


NOTICE, that the income difference starts VERY BEGINNING OF the game, immediately right after the game started. I seriously wonder how this cannot be definitive proof?


Maybe this is teh definitive proof we are talking about? : http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/


[/rant]

OK guys, how about this then?

1.


2.


3.



*Direct links if pictures are not shown.
www.the-firestorm.com/Example1.jpg
www.the-firestorm.com/Example2.jpg
www.the-firestorm.com/Example3.jpg

This is taken right after the game has started (this means I quit the game as soon as the game has launched) The first one is Human vs Normal AI, second one is vs. Hard AI, and the last one is vs. Unfair AI. This definitely shows the initial income rates for AIs.


As you see, Normal AI does not gain any resource boost, Hard AI gains 50% resource boost, and Unfair AI gains 100% resource boost.

NO, the Hard AI does infact get a 1.5 times income boost. Whereas, the unfair AI gets an even bigger income boost (2X).

Iztok, and wnmnkh are correct on this one. The hard AI is actually also a little "unfair"!