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Carriers are too powerful

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Carriers are too powerful

43% nerf to defense vessels + extra strike craft = double boost to carriers

from Sins Forums

So it's true that carriers weren't powerful enough.  Now they are too powerful.  It's actually arguable that you don't need to build anything but carriers, this is due to the ineffectiveness of defense vessels at defending the fleet.  While the defense vessel won't succumb easily to a strike attack, they aren't particularly good at shooting down strike craft either.

I suggest first of all that you look into this.  Carriers are usually meant to be a powerful but weak ship that needs to be protected by the rest of the fleet.

For Carriers: Reduce their shields and hit points, or reduce their armor.  Reduce their mobility, all ships have a disadvantage currently carriers do not have a weakness because they can't be caught and they have enough hit points and shields to survive a lot of damage.  Currently any regular attack ship can't get close enough to a carrier to take it out because they both move at the same speed.  This gives carriers an overwhelming advantage as they can just wait for their fighters to destroy the craft pursuing them.  Increase the build time of strike craft by a large amount, and have the carriers spawn automatically with one fighter and one bomber, but give the option to change that ratio. 

Currently carriers can build strike craft faster then defense vessels can shoot them down.  To protect against this, you basically need 1 defense vessel to protect each ship you have in the fleet, and even that doesn't work very well.  Perhaps it's a problem with the ability of defense vessels from hunting strike craft, or that their maneuverability is too low to make enough hits.

In the current release defense vessels can protect a fleet quite well against strike craft, I think it's at a good balance.  However since then defense vessels have had their dps reduced almost by half, while at the same time carriers received twice as many strike craft as before.  This obviously gave carriers a double bonus, as other ships in the fleet don't have any ability of shooting down strike craft.  These two changes made the carrier the single most powerful ship in any fleet to the point that if you made a fleet of carriers nothing but another fleet of carriers can stand in your way.

One last thing, please provide a method on Impulse to change back to the current release from the beta.  The carrier unblance, removes a lot of fun out of the game and I find myself loosing interest in playing.  I would like to switch back to the current release without having to download it all over again.

13,966 views 77 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
Light frigates


/tread

Also, if you bitch abaut your light frigates need to stop and fire, dont set them on atack, simply follow carrirs and they will shoot themself on the move.

The carrier player is doing micro, god forbid you doing little micro yourself to countter his micro?

damn layzy carebers, whining over noncence.

Oh and abaut flack, it needs to shood down the fighters, not bombers.

Fighters are or for bombers.

Flacks will diminish the enemy fighter ranks and if you got your own fighters, help you get air superiority.

But they are not supose to be all end solution to all your fighter problems.

slight buff against fighter maybe wont hurt but i dont want to see illuminator fleets that are immune from fighters with some odd 8 flaks covering them.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
Same thoughts here Cpt, if flack killed fighters (not bombers), it seems like an almost perfect play-balence.

Has anyone heard from the Devs on the beta imput? I don't read all the boards, but with all the imput everyone is giving them, I thought they would have left some message somewhere about new beta changes.

I thought for sure they'd have a quick-fix for the fighter/bomber scuttle bug by now at least. They must be busy with Impulse I guess.
The Political Machine 2024
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
did you ever realize how expensive it is to spam carriers? I dare you to try it in a 1v1.

Now if you look at things objectively the devs are trying to make balanced fleets teh way to go instead of just long range frigate spams.

Just a thought try a balanced army instead of a one trick pony??
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
Yes, I played a 1v1 against the AI last night, and carriers are expencive, and 20 cap to boot. But still, Flak I made to help counter the AI's SC seemd to do nothing, I eventually just stopped making it.

Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
Defensive Capabilities:
I think that carriers have become way too powerful because they can, like people above me have said, can quickly move around and constantly regenerate their hull and shields. I think cutting their speed, shields and hull points to make them easier to destroy would help the game.

Offensive Capabilities:
NO CARRIERS IN THE WORLD TODAY CARRY ONE SQUADRON OF AIRCRAFT.If that is the case why do the carriers in SoaSE only carry one squadron. I know this game is fictitious, but certain things could be better if realistic. In the game it takes a bunch of build points just so you can field one squadron of aircraft. Offensively I find the carrier useless. You would be better off fielding the carrier Cap ship.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
In the beta all the crusier carriers support two squadrons. I think advent carriers get three.
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
Defensive Capabilities:I think that carriers have become way too powerful because they can, like people above me have said, can quickly move around and constantly regenerate their hull and shields. I think cutting their speed, shields and hull points to make them easier to destroy would help the game.
Offensive Capabilities:NO CARRIERS IN THE WORLD TODAY CARRY ONE SQUADRON OF AIRCRAFT.If that is the case why do the carriers in SoaSE only carry one squadron. I know this game is fictitious, but certain things could be better if realistic. In the game it takes a bunch of build points just so you can field one squadron of aircraft. Offensively I find the carrier useless. You would be better off fielding the carrier Cap ship.
End of quote


Obviously you haven't been playing the beta. In beta advent carriers have 3 squadrons and the other two factions have 2 squadrons in theirs.

Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
Carriers oae definitely too strong now but making ALL those changes would make them useless. I think just a drop in armor by one or two points would be enough.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
I think Advent carriers are way too strong. One advent carrier carries almost 50% more SC than a carrier of the other races. Now an advent fleet could consist of carriers and guardians almost exclusively and mop the floor with almost anything.

The problem is I don't know that there is really any way to balance things in Sins.

I can't remember any RTS other than Total Annihilation where aircraft was disposable like this. In most RTS games, aircraft of all kinds are saved for strategic bombing/raiding roles bc of their weakness against AA ordinance as well as their expense. Now, neither of those seem to be the case.

Maybe carriers should have a limit to their fighter/bomber range so that they need to be more in the thick of things and more of a target for opposing fleets?
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
I am starting to agree with you guys on this. It wasnt a big deal when I was messing around on 2-3 player maps for fast games. But once you start playing 4-8 player maps the advent carrier start becoming godlike imo. I see them and die a little inside knowing that things are about to get nasty. And I have carriers of my own. I am fast teching 3 military just for missle frigs, and carriers. The downside is I fall a bit behind econimcally and on military researchs as I start pumping out frigs and carriers (carriers as I can afford them...) *sigh* I think I need to work out a new strat for 1.1 this fast tech to carriers keeps losing me games with more then 4 players in it.

Last game I played I just lost hands down vs 3 normal AI's. But I knew it was gonna happen when I opened the diplomacy screen. I random all races including mine. I get to see 1 TEC (me) and 3 Advent. I shoulda just quit there but I thought I would try and fight it out...1hour later I surrendered as 2 fleets with 7 drone carriers and about 20 guardians rolled in on my defence fleets while the offensive fleet was working on another advents homeworld.

Though their offensive power is strong, I believe its the shields and hull that are over the top and need to be brought down a notch or two. When the damn things are sitting in combat and its taking a ton of time to kill then its a bad thing. I wonder if I am taking the wrong approach with the new carriers, perhaps the answer is all fighters in my carriers, and take out the supporting fleet while my fighters destory everything that flys.Then mop up the now tough as nails advent carriers...
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
I'm finding late game fights have just way too many strikecraft, that you can hardly even see the ships anymore, the entire screen is full of strikecraft.

Trying to have large fleet battles of 100 ship vs 100 when theres 200-300 fighter/bombers stomping all across the screen just isnt fun. I cant even see the ships fighting cos the screen is full of strikecraft icons.

I'll try setting the game options to small fleet sizes for now. But I hope the carriers will get adjusted.

Just seems wrong when you compare it costs a capital crew+50 supply to get 4-6 strikecraft, while light carrier spam can throw out 4-6 for just 14-20 supply.

I think we should make light carriers cost 0.25 capital crew or something.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
The carriers are uber, i rather build 2 or 3 carriers instead of 1 capital-ship.

I have to agree with the entire carrier, strike-craft and flak problem and i hope they can balance it somehow soon.




Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
Well, I was all set to be really patient, and wait for the next beta update. And have fun testing that for a while. Knowing that over the next several months, we'd all help create the best 1.1 we could. But, did you guys read the latest on the Home Page? They said 1.1 will be the last update for Sins, and that they will release it around the middle of next month. That's about 3-4 weeks, and we have not even got any info or messages (that I've seen) from the devs about another beta update being released before then. Even if they do relase a new version, will 3 weeks be enough time for us all to test it and give more input. Now I feel rushed and worried about 1.1  :SURPRISED: 

I hope they will at least release a quick update to fix the SC scuttle bug, that seems to be keeping many from even continuing to test the current beta. Perhaps some kind of mini-buff to Flak too, so we can see if that helps the SC spam.

And I agree with you Lifewaster; there are so many SC, I can't see the rest of my fleet/ships most times. Good news is, if/when gamebalence is improved = less carriers = less masses of SC.

Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
They said 1.1 will be the last update for Sins,
End of quote

Where do you see that? I don't see that on the SoaSE mainpage.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
Our tentative date for the final version of Sins of a Solar Empire v1.1 is mid September.

Did I missread it?

Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
I think so. Sounds like that's just when they plan on releasing the final version of 1.1. Doesn't exclude the possibility that it's the last update, but I doubt it would be.
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
That's a releif; now I can go back and relax more about 1.1, IF, it's not the last update.

I have a Mod question for this topic: I know almost nothing about how to mod, but how difficult would it be for someone to make one or two simple changes to Flak ships, put it into a mod, and let us all test it out ourselves?

Anything, like increase range 50% and/or damage 25% or something like that. . .
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
Blasted forums blowing up in my face...

Anyways, with that topic that covers how to convert most of the 1.09 data to text, not that hard. Without it, you'll have to wait 'til they update the Forge Tools.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
Maybe they should slightly (underline, underline...) decrease the strikecrafts' dps.


Edit: ... and keep everything else the way it is.
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
Our tentative date for the final version of Sins of a Solar Empire v1.1 is mid September.Did I missread it?
End of quote


Yes you misread it. (psst misread has one s :D) That is just developer speak for saying that the Last version of 1.1 (aka no longer a beta) will be available.

That being said, I wonder if they are gonna push out another version of the Beta for us before then. Or if they have decided the feedback that they received was enough and are proceeding from here.

Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
maybe the dominance of advent carriers is also due to the fact that the are available so early. these carriers are very tough and probably on par with heavy cruisers, which is after all a lvl 5 unit! so the obvious question is: with such a huge boost in power and corresponding cost, why has the tech level not been changed to reflect their new role? I'd say changing advent carrier to lvl 4 or changing tec/ vasari to 4 and advent to 5 might work without that heavily tamper with the strength of the units. there still should be many counters, but at least it would not be as easy to get a powerful unit so fast.
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
Our tentative date for the final version of Sins of a Solar Empire v1.1 is mid September.Did I missread it?Yes you misread it. (psst misread has one s ) That is just developer speak for saying that the Last version of 1.1 (aka no longer a beta) will be available. That being said, I wonder if they are gonna push out another version of the Beta for us before then. Or if they have decided the feedback that they received was enough and are proceeding from here.
End of quote


i'm pretty sure they said they'll be releasing a revised beta soon.
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
The more I play 1.09 the less of a problem carriers are. I have started advancing to carriers earlier then normally did now. After about 10-15 LRF I start on making at least 10 carriers before continuing LRF production.

Even with Advent I am doing this now. I skip carriers and go straight to illuminators, then after I have 15-20 of them I go for 8 carriers (since they cost alot more then the other guys ones) Seems to be working really good. I will also say that late game and advent fleet of carriers (around 40) protected by 10 iconus guardians is disgusting. Between my carriers being tough, the bonus shields provided by my guardians, and me using the guardians Push power to keep you away.

Nothing is going to kill those Carriers. Well it works against the AI on insane at least. Not that they go after my carriers often, but I do use them as the backbone of my military in 1.09 advent play. Nothing like 80 fighters and 40 bombers swarming you and you cant get to the carriers to kill them.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top

Guys, light frigs counter carriers.  Carriers counter LRMS.  Everyone I've seen complaining about carriers has and sharing their strat has a huge flaw in it:  it doesn't mention caps and it doesn't mention light frigs.  Light frigs got buffed, give them a try.  A set of 100 upkeep of light frigs can pwn a set of 150-200 upkeep of carriers.  All you have to do is follow the carriers and the lfrigs will shoot at them while moving.  Don't click on the carrier, click near it so they continue to folow.  Unfortunately there isn't a pursue option, so you have to micro....to counter your enemies micro.  God forbig you have to do work to win a game against someone whose controlling his units better than you. 

Learn to manage your caps as well.  Late game, they are good counters.  When my fleet gets large, With TEC and Advent I make sure to sport kols and the advent carrier cap.  If you have two of them, a single double cast of flak burst or telekinetic push kills virtually ALL strike craft in their vecinity.  After that, having about 10 or 15 flaks in your fleet guarantees they won't snowball back up.  Unfortunately I don't have a solution for vasari since I don't play them as much.  Try using either your ulti cannon or bombers with the shield ignore upgrades leveled up to murder their carriers/strike craft. 

Remember folks, just because there is a strike craft icon on your screen doesn't mean its worth anything.  A SINGLE craft in a fresh fleet shows up...and does no damage, and dies fast.  Carriers are only effective for their upkeep when their strike craft are built, so if all things are equal and you kill their strike craft, you have the advantage in a battle...even if hes able to build more during the fight.

Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top

Your light frigs arent gonna do jack to carriers with guardian support you wont be able to stay close enough to fight them. All while illuminators might have decided to tear your light frigs to hell and back. Caps wont last more then 60 seconds when hit with a swarm of fighters/bombers. Since you want to talk about it in a mp context by saying they are microing better. Which by the way if you consider me giving them 7-8 shift click move orders microing my carriers mmmmkay. So while your busy actually microing after my carriers I will be microing the rest of my fleet while the carriers do their thing.