Stardock what in the heck is this? What happend to your Bill of Rights?

I'm not angry ... but I've noticed the same type of ethical issue with the new game Sacred 2.

I was just perusing the Impulse "coming soon" and noticed the Age of Booty and SecuROM comment as well.  Imagine my surprise when I came to the forums and the #1 post was exactly what I was coming to complain about!

I've recommended Stardock and their system of "pay once and download whenever" (i.e. Impulse) since I bought CalCiv2 ages ago.  However, it seems that I may need to reconsider that stance as I'm especially torqued-off over DRM right now thanks to my $50 Spore package being "used up" after installing it legitimately (laptop, gaming machine, and then I re-built a new gaming machine).  I'm not "up in arms" over this, but I want to hear what's going-on from the "Gamer's Bill of Rights" company.

Anyway, I look forward to an official response from Stardock on this Age of Booty and SecuROM thing.  If Stardock is just going to become yet another online store selling the same crap, I'll go to find another vendor (like Good Old Games gog.com) who has some respect for customer's machines and their choice where to spend money.

Mike

EDIT > What a waste of server hard-disk space ! This thread is being ignored. Enjoy your SecuRom rookit DRM. I won't purchase any game, on Impulse, that is protected by SecuRom.

Please stop perpetuating the blind hysteria. The Securom in Sacred 2 does not use a rootkit. Unlike say, Daemon Tools.

So you won't purchase Sacred 2 from Impulse because Stardock informed you up front about the DRM? Perfectly fair. But given that you now will never purchase the game from anywhere else, how is Stardock at fault here?

Stardock can not force other companies to follow the bill of rights, they can only lead by example.

Stardock games have no DRM, they have said repeatedly that other publishers on their site may be doing so and that the customer would be informed.  Get off your soapbox and drop the drama.

Also, EA has lifted the limited install clause on Spore, look at their own forums and site to see how to do it.

Stardock has said over and over agian that they will not use any DRM that is intrusive or interferes with users. They want to influence and guide the industry by thier example.  They want other developers and publishers to stop treating their customers like pirates. . . . .

But . . Impulse is a storefront for other games and not selling them would be a poor business decision.  As a resposible reseller and in line with teh Gamer's Bill of Rights, they openly disclose any DRM for any games they sell.  Show me another retailer that does that.

As an aside, the GBoR does not say no DRM, rereard it for content.

1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that are incompatible or do not function at a reasonable level of performance for a full refund within a reasonable amount of time.
2. Gamers shall have the right that games they purchase shall function as designed without defects that would materially affect the player experience.
3. Gamers shall have the right that games will receive updates that address minor defects as well as improves gameplay based on player feedback within reason.
4. Gamers shall have the right to have their games not require a third-party download manager installed in order for the game to function.
5. Gamers shall have the right to have their games perform adequately if their hardware meets the posted recommended requirements.
6. Gamers shall have the right not to have any of their games install hidden drivers.
7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest version of the games they purchase.
8. Gamers whose computers meet the posted minimum requirements shall have the right to use their games without being materially inconvenienced due to copy protection or digital rights management.
9. Gamers shall have the right to play single player games without having to have an Internet connection.
10. Gamers shall have the right to sell or transfer the ownership of a physical copy of a game they own to another person.

Further . . it's good to have customers invovled and passionate.  Thanks!

If Stardock would actively refuse games with DRM to get into Impulse, a brand new digital distribution platform, what do you think would happen? Would publishers and developers say "I'm sorry for that, I'll change my ways" or "I have better and more compliant distributors than you to work with".

Change does not happen over night and principle can't be dictated without the power to influence, especially when you're trying to compete with Steam's near monopoly (which is eager to please the status quo) and a lot of other B-class competitors. Stardock can only set the example and, hopefully, others will reach the same conclusions and stop wasting money on dead ends.

Impulse's business model has to take into account the current circumstances lest they lose their investment and whatever influence they have (a hand full of die-hard customers can't support Stardock, let alone allow it to grow). Unfortunately, the nature of business has a corruptive element to it that you can't escape from, meaning that it matters less the compromises you make but the final results you achieve based on your principles.

There are two things you know for sure with Impulse: #1 games with DRM are dully indicated as such. #2 Stardock's games do not have direct DRM. 

Could you please link ANY reliable source that can confirm that SecuRom is indeed a rootkit? I'm very interested in reading how SecuRom (or some other "evil" company) gain system admin priviliges on a system with the SecuRom driver without the owner knowing about it....

As an aside . . in another post you have argued that you openly pirate software because you had a "need".  I call bullshit on any arguments you have from here on out.

http://reclaimyourgame.com/

Wanting to control what you have on your computer by accessing your OS Kernel can't be good for consumer's rights.

Hmm. I'd be more interested to hear precisely how Sony managed to secure visibility of Microsoft's kernel myself.

Almost by definition, Copy Protection and DRM are an inconvenience, so to me #8 of the GBoR means "No DRM".

 But, it really don't matter to me, one way or another. I'm a consumer. I buy from the company that can provide the best value (which includes trust, price, convenience and support) Stardock has been that company for some of my purches, other companies for some of my others. I do, however, like that they highlight which games have DRM, so I know which not to buy. To me, that is more then enough "Plus" to make up for the "Minus" of actually carring the game in the first place.

On a side note, I think the Bigger issue is the fact that a week has gone by without an offical response to an Angry (justified or not) Customer.

That sort of thing tends to lower my regard for a company. I start thinking "what if I had a problem, would they respond to me?"

yeah I burned myself on this one as well.  I love Age of Booty on the 360 (broken still for me and others on the PS3) and so I figured I would buy it for the PC through Impulse (had been buying through impulse over steam because I'm a fan of what they're doing with their games and no DRM).  I, being the quick impulse buyer didn't look at the Securom stuff, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it period.  Stardock is right, they never said they wouldn't sell DRM games, just that theirs wouldn't have DRM.  That hits home now as I can't activate Age of Booty online right now.  I can't even get to securom's website as it appears they've lost their registration (or my own ISPs DNS server isn't relaying the request properly). 

I've always called this the Switzerand mentality.  They never did anything bad back in the day, but they sure didn't mind supporting someone else that did..  I applaud Stardock for not using DRM and for having realy awesome games.  I'd really applaud them if they put their wallet where their mouth is and stop supporting other companies using DRM   I think they  can do it (not a rant, I like you guys).  I can't speak for them though as I'm pretty comfortable with my 6 figure job and very few bills - I'm sure they have plenty of their own to pay that make their decisions for them.  I think  won't be doing any spending sprees anymore as I realized how naive I was being when I didn't think there was DRM here, but I'm still a big fan of Stardock's games and look forward to more.

This is the second version of Age of Booty I've had problems with and I think it reflects on the game's developer/publishers (PS3 and PC version).

anyhow, keep up the good work on your own outstanding in-house games Stardock, and I look forward to more of them   If you don't (or can't due to bills/paychecks that have to be paid) speak with your wallet on selling other companies' DRM games, at least it's still a start that you aren't going down that path yourself.  It just means a slower road to DRM-free games for everyone, but eventually we'll get there.  as far as capcom goes, this has been a big inconvenience to me, for the second time.  On the bright side, I am a malware analyst and software reverse engineer (legally), so I am sure I can circumvent it should I need to in order to get it playing.  It really sucks that in order to play a game I bought from the store I would have to become a criminal, so I'll just pass and wait for securom's site to start working again.

I have to agree with Zubaz.

While DRM is by and far the biggest dick move any company can use you REALLY shouldn't be expecting people who work at stardock to lurk in the community forums. I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry, like...you know...finishing games and stuff. The entire point of having mods and such is so this information makes it to them, if they started responding here it would be bad stuff because any mispoken line would be attacked.

On an unrelated note if EA grows a backbone and releases Sims 3 without DRM on it (and no tricky DRM required for patching) I'll buy their game on day one to show my support. However I imagine I'll find out that they backed out on keeping it drm free like they said they would (to be fair I saw that on a secondary source so it may have been a lie).

They never said it was going to be DRM free. It's going to have a disc check and not have limited installs, require online activation or utilize Securom. That's already been announced. I suspect you will have to register online to access their Sims 3 storefront. Also, side note they are selling the Sims 3 for 25 dollars at Microcenter (19.99 + 5 deposit) in store. You can always buy it and return it if they back out but even EA hs to know that annoucing a change in DRM policy and then reverting back would be even worse PR than they had with Spore.

This is all true. I work for a rather well-known website and we explicitly sign a contract stating that we will not frequent the community boards, nor will we ever post in response to any customer. Espiecially angry customers. We have forum moderators who bring the information to our HR reprsentatives who draft a response, send it to our Legal department and if Legal accepts the content, the post is then made. This typically takes 3-4 days, even for run-of-the-mill responses and there have been a few times where it took more than two weeks for more significant issues. So, yes, expecting Stardock employees to reply to your post is a waste of your time.

Maybe i missed the point, but numbers 4 and 10 are already violated just by the very existence of Impulse!!! and a serious reason i have already stopped purchasing games here.

Uhh.... how is 4 violated precisely? Impulse is used for patching, but you can play games without having it installed.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sims_3#Software_copy_restriction

I doubt they will do any crazy stuff anymore after the beating SecuROM has taken so far.

"The only thing that has been violated in this case is grammar rules by you."

You forgot 'IMNSHO'.

Like, say, number 3 in conjunction with number 4 is impossible with Impulse. And one might say that number 10 is somewhat of an arbitrary limitation, since the games are registered online.

And I would say that the whole system doesn't really stop much, they're just rewriting laws with their code and removing a few rights you would normally have with physical things.

It's not that I don't think they should do what they do, but their posture as being any different is as laughable as Apple's: it's all marketing aimed at increasing their bottom line. At least they have sales. In 15 years it's going to be funny watching people like you do an 180 when they can no longer play games they miss.

Also...

"As an aside . . in another post you have argued that you openly pirate software because you had a "need".  I call bullshit on any arguments you have from here on out."

Classy. Right up there with saying ex-cons shouldn't vote because society doesn't matter to them.

EDIT: Oh, and please don't post anything that a mod might not like, because there go your games... I don't think any of the licenses protects you from, certainly not EA's, right?

Yeah though.  Software is not a *need*.  It's a want.  You pirate it with som excuse . . that make s you a thieif with an excuse.  I don't want ot need that crap.

" I don't think most peopel should have teh right to vote.  If I had my my way, votign would be a privilidge allocated to those that did X amount of governmetn service.  But I'm a  hard ass like that."

Indeed you would have made Stalin proud.