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Useless Units

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Useless Units

from Sins Forums

Certain units in Sins are completely useless, but i haven't come across many suggestions. 

Seige Frigates: Now these units are totally useless. i've heard of many people complaining about this. I suggest that they should cost far less fleet supply (7 fleet supply?) since they have such limited role on the battlefield. 14 fleet supply is simply way too much.

I've never heard of anyone who makes colony frigates as Advent and Vasari and i've never heard of any one who likes Dominas and Overseers. I play as Vasari and I rarely bother with Overseers. When I do, they don't do much. Reactive nanite armour is meh and the other abilities are too expensive and you can just research the sensors tree to detect incoming enemy ships anyway.

Any thoughts?

 

 

43,204 views 40 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting k33bz, reply 25
I didn't say it was a guarantee, but a lot of times you can get lucky and at least distract them long enough to make a mistake that costs them the fleet or force them to retreat. At the expense of a few ships I'll take that risk, especially if its a choke point.
End of k33bz's quote
You could send in a single Vulkoras (or generally - siege cap) level 4-5 and it'll be more effective and not so easily killed. I for one always have at last one or two Hangar Defense structures in later game at any planet of mine, which is enough to wipe 5-7 siege frigates before they do too much damage. Also, building two light frigs is enough of a counter to your attack.
As for the battle itself, I would concentrate on killing your fleet than losing one planet in the meantime, since with your fleet destroyed I can conquer a dozen more. Plus, those 5 siege frigs have eaten away 70 fleet points, which is circa 10-12 LRM frigs, which could have helped you very much in the battle.

Siege frigs have little use as they are, simply because they're too fragile, too limited, very expensive and basically do the same thing the caps do, but aren't so good at it.

On the other hand, they cannot be more effective, simply because killing planets would be way too easy.

They are an expensive alternative if you don't want to waste your cap ships' time on bombing. Just as colony frigs are an expensive alternative to Colony Cap for colonizing (for Vasari, for others they are moderately more useful for captuing extractors).

Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top

I don't mess with colony frigs unless I have a reason to actualyl go out and cap something but the fact that I usualyl have 16 cap ships mid to late game anyway hardly makes colony frigs useful - as for siege ships you're right but there are times they are useful.

I wouldn't miss them if they wre gone thats for sure, but all im saying is if you fail to defend your rear panets adiquitly they can suck.

As for fleets - as Vasari its safer to have 3-4 smaller than 1 big one - the Antorak makes sure of it.

Which is the other nice thing about siege frigates, if the portal is open, drop in a few and let them taek the planet whiel the fleet can move on insted of mopping up.

unless of course you want to leave your caps behidn and move the rest of the fleet or simply chill out while the enemy has time to regroup

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Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

I couldn't really agree less.

If you made 16 caps and survived, it means you aren't playing a competitive game.

As for the fleet concentration, of all the three races the Vasari have the royal privilege of being able to move swiftly all around the system. This means that they, of all the races, SHOULD abuse the chance to make concentrated, overpowering strikes and then adapt quickly to enemy counterstrikes (by sending a part of your fleet from your main force to the planet in peril, with the use of the Marauder).
Tec, Advent should share forces, because if they don't, they'll be eaten from the flanks - they have to jump from planet to planet, moving slowly through each grav well and losing craploads of antimatter in due course. Vasari can reach their flanks in seconds.

Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting N3rull, reply 3
I couldn't really agree less.

If you made 16 caps and survived, it means you aren't playing a competitive game.

As for the fleet concentration, of all the three races the Vasari have the royal privilege of being able to move swiftly all around the system. This means that they, of all the races, SHOULD abuse the chance to make concentrated, overpowering strikes and then adapt quickly to enemy counterstrikes (by sending a part of your fleet from your main force to the planet in peril, with the use of the Marauder).
Tec, Advent should share forces, because if they don't, they'll be eaten from the flanks - they have to jump from planet to planet, moving slowly through each grav well and losing craploads of antimatter in due course. Vasari can reach their flanks in seconds.
End of N3rull's quote

are you not contradicting yourself? one the one hand you say that having many capital ships isn't possible in a competitive game (actually, you said having 16, but in order to have a reasonable planet killing force you need at least some 3 - 4 per fleet, which is also not very doable) and on the other hand you dismiss siege frigs as useless.

my view is that both alternatives are bad, but if you want to kill planets, siege frigs are a better choice bc you can have about 4 for less cost than a capship and they will do a lot more dmg than a capship (even though the former perform a number of other functions too). I mean some even talk about dismantling their capship yard after the first free cap. but then, if not via siege frigs, how could one possible take over planets?

Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top

What about granting siege frigs a "Planetary Assault" ability that allows them a small % chance of capturing a world intact (ie. no having to rebuild infastructure), mostly intact (some upgrades lost), or  or an ability that aids the fleet in some combat role like using their anti-planet weapons on capital ships or starbases for lots of damage (25+). I think this is easily balanced by their weak armor and low HP.

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top

What about granting siege frigs a "Planetary Assault" ability that allows them a small % chance of capturing a world intact (ie. no having to rebuild infastructure), mostly intact (some upgrades lost), or or an ability that aids the fleet in some combat role like using their anti-planet weapons on capital ships or starbases for lots of damage (25+). I think this is easily balanced by their weak armor and low HP.
End of quote

Then people would spam the ships hoping to get lucky and flip a planet before the defenses take them down. Some structures are also unique, so capturing them intact is not possible.

Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top

yup. the siege frigs are a delicate thing. anyone who remembers the early versions can think of the havoc that siege spam brought. horrible. even against the ai.

Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Shadowhal, reply 4
are you not contradicting yourself? one the one hand you say that having many capital ships isn't possible in a competitive game (actually, you said having 16, but in order to have a reasonable planet killing force you need at least some 3 - 4 per fleet, which is also not very doable) and on the other hand you dismiss siege frigs as useless.
End of Shadowhal's quote
Ok I was wrong. I COULD agree less. The thing about dropping in siege frigs via Stabilizer node is actually sensible. I didn't say siege frigs specifically have no use, though I fell in my own trap by using such an absolute statement.
Anyway I still think that 16 caps = lol. Unless you are playing a 10 player 100 planet map with AIs, you aren't gonna have half of the caps leveled above level 5 before you're killed. And most caps before or at level 5 simply die to any reasonable focus fire while not doing much on the battlefield, plus their AM reserves last for a few seconds of using their best abilities.
Having 3, maybe 4 cap ships on a medium game is what I believe to be the balance.

For planet killing I believe planet-killing caps need to be employed. Vulkoras, Marza. That's what they're for. Marza can lead battles too, but Vulkoras IMO, with fixed Assault spec is now a planet cracker extraordinaire and to be used as such.
If you don't want them in, I said the frigs are an expensive alternative and there they go.

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting N3rull, reply 8

Quoting Shadowhal, reply 4are you not contradicting yourself? one the one hand you say that having many capital ships isn't possible in a competitive game (actually, you said having 16, but in order to have a reasonable planet killing force you need at least some 3 - 4 per fleet, which is also not very doable) and on the other hand you dismiss siege frigs as useless.Ok I was wrong. I COULD agree less. The thing about dropping in siege frigs via Stabilizer node is actually sensible. I didn't say siege frigs specifically have no use, though I fell in my own trap by using such an absolute statement.
Anyway I still think that 16 caps = lol. Unless you are playing a 10 player 100 planet map with AIs, you aren't gonna have half of the caps leveled above level 5 before you're killed. And most caps before or at level 5 simply die to any reasonable focus fire while not doing much on the battlefield, plus their AM reserves last for a few seconds of using their best abilities.
Having 3, maybe 4 cap ships on a medium game is what I believe to be the balance.
For planet killing I believe planet-killing caps need to be employed. Vulkoras, Marza. That's what they're for. Marza can lead battles too, but Vulkoras IMO, with fixed Assault spec is now a planet cracker extraordinaire and to be used as such.
If you don't want them in, I said the frigs are an expensive alternative and there they go.
End of N3rull's quote

ok, that makes sense. my only point is that with 3 - 4 ships in your total navy to do the job (and only 1, max. 2 to do it well), you're fairly unflexible in your attack. unless you are vasari where you are considerable more mobile that is.

Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

There is one other point with seige frigates to remember - if you can't build a cap due to getting worked and lack of econ, you can still pump out some seige frigates to try and get a planet...

Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Hack78, reply 10
There is one other point with seige frigates to remember - if you can't build a cap due to getting worked and lack of econ, you can still pump out some seige frigates to try and get a planet...
End of Hack78's quote
As he said.

ok, that makes sense. my only point is that with 3 - 4 ships in your total navy to do the job (and only 1, max. 2 to do it well), you're fairly unflexible in your attack. unless you are vasari where you are considerable more mobile that is.
End of quote
<- Vasari lover.
Still I keep what I said, even if we're talking TEC/Advent. Unless the map is over 25 planets (gravwells), 3-4, max 6 cap ships are well enough. If the map is bigger, like 50-60 planets in a 4 player game, 8 caps or so is the max I'd try to get. This is still far far away from 16. I'd consider building 16 caps on a 120+ planet 6+ player game, which is hardly ever played in a competitive environment (by which I mean that it doesn't matter if you build twenty one or none, you'll likely win anyway).

Making it short, my opinion can be stated as follows: 
IF the game is not HUGE (80+ planets) and REALLY requires you to apply EFFECTIVE tactics and strategies in order to WIN, making 16 caps is going to make you LOSE.

Reply #37 from Stardock Forums Top

I will concecde that the smaller the map the less useful the siege frigs are - that's something I neglected to consider - your point of view is valid for small and rush maps - the siege frigs are a big burden for a quicker game.

Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top

I like Domina Subjugator; its not the best ship.  It's a support that supress and heal.  And it only take 4 supply.

Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top

Does building 3-5 really hurt you that bad in MP? Because it sure helps waste planets faster. You don't have to build 80 of them to be useful. It would definitely be an obnoxious unit to spam if that were possible.

Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Pherdnut, reply 14
Does building 3-5 really hurt you that bad in MP? Because it sure helps waste planets faster. You don't have to build 80 of them to be useful. It would definitely be an obnoxious unit to spam if that were possible.
End of Pherdnut's quote

hm. I think the main problem is that they take up an so much fleet supply. with 14 you can already get the tec or vasari versions of light carriers and 5 of those are not something to be neglected. alternatively, you can also get a good dozen or more combat frigates and those are usually enough to down a lower level capship. so yeah, that can actually make a diffence.

add to that that siege frigs are absolutely, totally useless against anything else and have a horrible survivability and you have a difficult choice. maybe if they had a secondary function, something that could benefit them in battle ...