Close Range Combat V. Carriers

     Hey Ron. Are you fighting the AI?

Yeah -- it's been long enough since last I played that I wanted to dust my skills off.

yes, carriers are horridly imbalanced. I just came on to say the same thing, after having stopped a pro player's offense (level 6 vasari mothership, 30 enforcers, 20 skirmishers) using 11 advent carriers and no cap. although this battle was in my culture and my opponent had been choked down to only 2 planets, its 220 supply v 563 supply. all i had to do was keep my carriers moving and i could hold him indefinately. carriers need to be somehow toned down.

 

edit: those were enforcers (the direct attack cruisers) not overseers(support cruisers). I frequently mix up the names on those ships.

If you had all carriers, why didn't he have flak frigates?  Also, killing moving carriers is done well with bombers or even fighters.

 

I would agree though. There needs to be an AI rework where ships will effectively fight when other ships are moving. An "engage" mode might do well where all ships attack as close as possible. That way they won't stop at the outskirts of their range.

First people complain that certain units are useless, they get fixed, THEN they complain that the same units are now too powerful.  The carriers are better now, so wouldn't it follow that you should counter with flak units (which are now truly necessary since fighters/bombers are better) and with carriers of your own, with direct fire as your backup.  This is how it works in current naval reality, so I see nothing wrong with the new balance in Sins.  It's certainly better than when carriers sucked horribly.

My complaint isn't that the carriers were OP; its that the AI responsible for letting my capship attack them was bad.  From what I can tell, carriers are about the right power level -- it's just that attacking them is a little difficult if you manage to get 'stuck' in close quarters with them.  (And close quarters is supposed to be bad for carriers, not good!)

 

As far as why I didn't have other units there, they were busy on another front -- a level 8 Kol with repair bay backup is plenty firepower to hold off a dieing opponent... when it actually bothers to use its forward guns.  (hangars had gotten blown earlier in the engagement, back when the enemy had enough forces to be a threat).

carriers were given too much of a buff, as i can destroy a flak frigate with a carrier frigate. its really just the advent ones that can do this though, so those should probably be toned down a little.

 

IIRC, the advent carriers are signifigantly more expensive than the other races -- because they have 3 squads rather than 2, like their hangars.

They cost 1280 and a crapload of resources. So yeah, I'm okay with them being really hard to kill with a flak frigate. Advent get 3 squads in their hangers too. On top of that they can boost each hangar squad by two more strike craft with upgrades. I agree with the OP though. A lot of the ship movement can be frustrating. I'll try to micro and my ships just go on these insanely wide arcs that take them right into enemy fire.

Edit: Just made it clear that upgrade applies to the hangars.

I must agree with apoc527, the statement is accurate to the fact that if we are using basic naval tactics the game is superlative with its manner of checks and balances. One must use every unit available to its fullest extent to achieve each battles success. I currently have 4-month worth of experience (93% achievement rate) and these are the methods that I’ve used to this date.

thay are definitely the beefiest frigate ship in the game, require lots of resources to build, and 20 supply. That, and they remind me of the Mummy-Raptors from Zone of the Enders. Yay.

You have to do something to them though. Im too much in love with the enhancements though so you shant take my 3 squads away from me. Instead, they need to be made much more vulnerable. A sharply reduced level of shielding and armor might to the trick. The fuckers really do take too long to kill. Even against beam defense platforms youre still looking at a few dozen shots to take them out. In comparison if a beam platform even so much as looks funny at a Seige Frigate, it spontaneously combusts.

Then even after the carrier is down, youre still looking at its abandoned strike craft sticking around for up to a minute and a half. So yes, please make the carrier more susceptible to damage. Even with the high resource and supply cost, it only seems fair. Support Ships can still keep it alive just as they normally would if the carrier is part of a balanced fleet. The health nerf would only seriously affect the carrier if it wasnt being buffed by friendly ships which again, encourages a better flavor of gameplay, instead of Zerg Rushing your opponent with a dozen rogue untouchable-carriers.

Is the health/shields of the Advent Frigate not accurately inline with its costs compared to the other carrier frigates?

It seems to be. If you nerf the advent carrier frigate, you'll need to nerf the others too. They are weaker, but thats because they are cheaper.

First drop, the "basic naval tactics" bs. This is no USS Arizona blown to space, this is space combat and reasoning that something should happen there because it happens now is derailed.
The game should be balanced and fun, not draw from today's warfare.

Secondly, the problem with carriers is this:
If carriers show up in one fleet, they have to show up in another.
They are a swift counter to anything - LRMs, HCs... . However, they have no counter except other carriers. The only way to effectively kill a bomber spam is with fighter spam, because flaks don't do much good against bombers.

You can counter any other tactic without resorting to copying it. This is not the case with carriers. That's why they're irritating.
Imbaed thing about carriers is that, when you have like two dozen of them, they can kill almost anything (as in: any single target) without endangering themselves AT ALL, because strike craft are free. I would like to see a small price put on strike craft (1 credit for fighter, 2 on bomber, 2/3 for Vasari for how tough their strikcraft are). That way you actually have to pay for engaging with carriers, just as you pay for putting any other ship to combat, because any other ship has to actually come right to the enemy and receive punishment as it deals its own.

Not true Lfs can,do,and excell at killing carriers. There just under estimated.

I find your adolescent retaliatory response humorous. We are here discussing individual strategy, not battling over opinion. Do refrain from the slanderous retorts.

Now, it’s agreed that there is a strategy for every tactic that could be executed. The factor is if the initiate’s execution is devastating enough to eliminate the oppositions, is all that matters in the end of the battle.

[quote who="N3rull" reply="13" id="1954737"]


You can counter any other tactic without resorting to copying it.

I have found a counter to carrier spam, but it won't save you from a fleet of them. The trick is to rush the advent player before he can start spamming carriers. As for LRFs, those thing get smashed pretty badly by carriers, they're slow and are outranged. I think the way to balance them is to buff the performance of flak frigates.

Boosting flak frigates is a good idea.

 

I personally think Carriers should be the backbone of a fleet. I don't find spamming them is effective though as HC and LF and some battleships can take them out fairly well. The only issue i've seen is that people will micro them to run around grav wells and ships won't fire on them.

Maybe you can overspam carriers with cobalts or disc. vessels and sheer numbers will be enough to kill the carriers. Still, you will lose a hell lot of them even before they start shooting at the carriers.
Carriers have the advantage of being able to kill quickly over the whole grav well, without having to worry about immediate retaliation. That's what makes them different from all other ships, which actually have to put their hull in the firezone in order to attack anything themselves.
So lfs can kill carriers. However, even before they start shooting, they will take losses and will keep taking heavy losses throughout the whole fight. Worse, bombers will stay in space for a long time after the host dies, so the lfs will keep dying at a high rate.

I know you will all say "what did you think, that you can win a big fight without losses?".

This case is different - "you will take heavy losses even before you enter the fight."