I've got one word for you: "Beta"

I'm tired of hearing complaints about advent illuminator spams. If you can't figure out how to counter illums, then maybe this isn't the game for you. I have been on both sides of the illums, and i can say for certain that they are not unstoppable, especially a straight illum spam without capitals and guardians.

If you're a Tec, i'll give you a hint. Hashiko. Good Luck.

I completely agree with the OP. I would have much rather seen an expansion that maybe introduced ship customization akin to galciv2. By doing this, it would make for more interesting matches as the enemy would be harder pressed to figure out what your ships are capable of.

I doubt i'll be buying this expansion, as it seems it will expand the time of games by at least two fold. A larger tech/unit tree, ship customization, and more planet types / Bonus's is what I want.

As to the tools that keep saying 'It's just beta!!11!' - The expansion comes out January 1st. What you see now is for the most part what you are going to get come the 1st - And the first is less then two weeks away. I've heard the 'It's just beta' line far to many times to be fooled, at this point. Not to mention - the beta phase in development is used to squash bugs, not change key elements of gameplay.

And obviously you did not read.

Where the hell I said they are unstoppable? I say early gamer ender, not saying "they will omfg wtfown you"

And don't fool yourself; other than new players, most of them are just going for mothership and that's the cap for the illum spam.

And given the fact that relatively easy access to carriers and guardians the things got much nasty.

The problem of illum is that the fact that they will wtfown everything, but it usually put Advent player on much higher and unfair advantages with other Advent units.

And you know what? I clearly stated the core of the problem : LRF IN GENERAL.

Nevermind illums.

In current state of game you MUST have LRFs as a majority of forces, with the absence of light frigates and near-absence of flak frigates.

See? Ironclad does not need to introduce new units; there are already two units with excellent rendering and textures which almost never used in multiplayers. LRFs in general can be nerfed by making Flak frigates true counter to LRFs (change their weapon type to light with some boost against very light) and slight buff on light frigates.

With these changes we can solve the LRF problems, Light & Flak being useless problems, and Carrier spam in one shot.

Oh btw plz DO NOT SAY light frigates are only for early stage only. There are some researchs for light frigates in LATE game which make them as a (supposedly) counter to support cruiers and carriers.

But it never works, since they die like flies in front of LRFs. We need to put massive number of LRFs out of question to make light frigates being viable in mid and late games, which they are supposed to be still useful to make.

Calling someone a tool is really unnecessary. The reason I said "beta" is because the OP is coming out like this is the final product and all is lost.

As for the realease date being January 1st, can you direct me to where that is stated? I honestly haven't seen an official release date of January 1. I was expecting final release sometime at the end of January, start of February, and I've seen Blair Fraser state this is Beta 1, and they will be releasing a Beta 2. So unless we see that very shortly, January 1 release date seems very unrealistic.

Also, from what I've seen, IronClad beta's actually are about crushing bugs AND changing key elements of play. Sure we won't see the Starbase removed, but we will definitely see their roles abilities and stats change.

On another note, you say you agree completely with the OP then claim you want customized ship design. You don't think having customized ship designs will A) increase game length because people will be focusing on designing ships over playing and B ) make the game heavily unbalanced? The main point of the OP is "1. Please fix the original balance problems."

If you've played Eve you'll have an idea of how insanely hard it is to balance ships when they are customizable.

I'm really surprised someone is complaining LRF's are over powered. Everyone else is all torn up over carriers.

If you don't know this yet, strikecraft tear up LRF's. Anytime someone has tried to spam LRF's at me, I've very easily destroyed them with carriers.

Actually, since 1.12 I haven't seen anyone win with an LRF spam.

I did notice thought that in Entrenchment they've fixed some unit AI issues. Running a carrier around a gravity well no longer works because LF's will follow them closer and continue to fire. So it seems they actually are working on some core issues you've brought up (balancing).

"LRFs dominating the battlefield ended with pure fighter spam"

Do you see this sentence?

While they are not overpowered as pre-1.1, but they are still the core problem of the whole balance. Because of them, the counters for carriers, light frigates, DO NOT WORK.

See, once you got the carriers with fighters, you can easily rip apart LRFs, but then to counter carriers you are supposed to build a light frigates. Wait, LRFs are counter for light frigates!

Carriers are usually come later than LRFs due to requiring higher research tier and/or higher cost. SO the time you pumping out carriers you have some sizable amount of LRFs already.

See, due to the fact that LRFs are being amost same cost as light frigates with similar durabilities, lighter requirements compared to carriers and high base dps, light frigates are currently on the bottom of food chain, not being able to act as a proper counter to support cruisers in general.

It means LRFs need to be nerfed, by buffing other units (FLAKs and light frigates) so no units will be worthless like in current build.

It says Jan 1st on Impulse, but I think that is just a placeholder. If you believe that it comes out on Jan 1st, you should really learn how it works...

The point is, they are Light Frigates, not Light Cruisers, Destroyers, or Heavy Cruisers. No LF can survive to enter its range of a cap ship, or a CA or CL. And they do have a purpose. Die and take some mines with them.

20 mines? What the hell, I have 170 mines around a phase line as TEC, and I only killed 3 pirate pillagers. Mines need alonger range in which they will attack a target, so a pirate fleet that is supposed to be dead doesn't rampage through your more lightly defended systems before you can stop them.

I agree with Tkins. Customizing ships might work if you create them before games, and then research them, but creating them ingame will take a long time, and people will always be making more ships to counter the enemies ships, with more armor and shields, or even more weapons. You can't have it both ways, with a shorter game, and a customizable fleet.

And flak frigates as counters for LRFs? LRFs are faster, longer ranged, and anyone who leaves them on their own against an enemy is an idiot. LFs are an even worse idea. LRFs already have almost as much health as an LF, and do much more damage. Change the flak frigate to a mine sweeper, and theres a good use for it. The LF really has no use past early game. It shouldn't as well.

Except the final version of it doesn't actually come out Jan 1st. That is just a date that they put in Impulse as a placeholder. It is not an actual release date.

Personally, I like that they went "defensive" I like longer games. But that's just my opinion.

i love the new expansion just because it takes longer. winning a hard fought game that takes hours to finish is more rewarding then winning with a lrm spam.  

Going defensive helps players like me, who prefer to build up massive defenses before I launch my fleet. I go along like that in real life to, I don't like taking risks that can be avoided. I quite literally can not attack unless I am certain my defenses will hold or I have a superiority so crushing, there is no way the enemy can stop me.

"See, once you got the carriers with fighters, you can easily rip apart LRFs, but then to counter carriers you are supposed to build a light frigates. Wait, LRFs are counter for light frigates!"

Yes, that is exactly how strategy works. You need to have a balanced fleet and that is exactly what patch 1.12 was all about. You need carriers to kill LRFs, you need LFs to kill Carriers and you need LRFs to kill LFs! That's exactly what I want because fleets will be about maintaining a good balance to reflect what your enemy is producing.

"Carriers are usually come later than LRFs due to requiring higher research tier and/or higher cost. SO the time you pumping out carriers you have some sizable amount of LRFs already."

This I completely agree with. I do not like that counters are released at later stages in the game for higher costs. This only promotes early rushes and spams. I'm actually working on a mod that will have all ships available within the first 2 tiers with possible super weapons or very unique ships being released later. All counters will be easily accessible though and not require any large cost over what they are supposed to destroy.

You've definitely hit the nail here and I'm surprised no one else has ever picked up on this (or at least vocalized it).... is vocalized even a word?

Hopefully my mod will work out and set a bit of an example though that we can all work with. Only one way to see!

There's 2 valid sides to this. The people who like long games, and people who want shorter MP games. The balance is a little off right now, mostly because it takes much more effort and time to disarm the mines than it does to deploy them. But that's just a gameplay balance issue, not the absolute final design. Personally, I'd prefer it if the scouts detonated the mines themselves so they would be like actual minesweepers - right now you send the scout in and the mines flicker between invuln/normal (bug) so it takes much longer to destroy them since your ships can't fire on invuln targets.

But yeah, January 1st is a placeholder date. It'll be out when it's ready.

"Yes, that is exactly how strategy works. You need to have a balanced fleet and that is exactly what patch 1.12 was all about. You need carriers to kill LRFs, you need LFs to kill Carriers and you need LRFs to kill LFs! That's exactly what I want because fleets will be about maintaining a good balance to reflect what your enemy is producing."

See, that does not work that much. Notice I said "you have some sizable amount of LRFs already." The fact that individual carriers are very tough (yes they are) and fighters&bombers, while they are not effective against LFs, can still deliever very first damages, while LFs must be get close to carriers.

LRF's range also contributes this problem. The conclusion I got was that LFs are just not alive enough ever to be counter for carriers and support cruisers.

In the end your army is ended up composed of LRFs, carriers and some support cruisers. Both flaks and LFs are not shown.

I am not sure about your idea is, but the given the fact that flaks are available at the same tier as LRFs, I believe they can be act as a counter to both fighters and LRFs, this also solve the problem bombers being underused as well.

EDIT : doh, double negative.

Why not have a setting to choose what starting tech level the game starts at? 

I don't under use bombers. If some dumbass wants to ride into my dozens of squadrons with his LFRs, and my capital ships wanting more exp, I'm more then happy to help him to meet his maker.

Yet again, flaks wouldn't be a LRF counter. Flaks are anti-fighter, and fighters and frigates aren't the same thing. I use flaks as escorts for my carriers, because they are still useful in that regard. They can kill fighters and bombers, if slower then I'd like, and anybody whos dumb enough to send a few dozen LFs that have been hammered by my carriers into the teeth of my flak frigate squadrons will just help me along on my path to world domination.

And its a Navy, not an Army.

As good as it would be, it's probably one of those things that's easier said than done. Mind you I can't speak on this as a fact, but it seems like the current engine design isn't very friendly to this idea, for better or worse, so I imagine if it is a lot of work to implement, IC would probably rather do something else But again, I don't know any more here than you do, it's just my guess.

Perfect statements.  I don't see how people can honestly have fun playing a game that takes 1-2 hours, with everything set on fast.  What fun is it to be involved in a "who can click the fastest and spam the most ships the quickest" (whatever ships they choose to spam to kill off the enemies?

I mean if I want something like that, I can pull out DoW or CoH or any other RTS that is all about  who clicks the fastest.

I want a game that takes hours (HOURS) where I can implement strategy and diplomacy among my enemies in order to truly enjoy the beauty of the game.  For those of you who want the twitchfest, just set all things to fast and do a small map...you'll be done in no time and not have to worry about the more intricate aspect of the game.

Tried that with EaW, when you played against the Empire, they just teched up to Death Star and SSD faster, or the Alliance got better Heros for their raids, or the Constorium got its Crusaders that can kill a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser in 2 minutes. (Really, 4 Crusaders killed 2 Star Cruisers?)

I don't know, this is space so it can be airforce as well

Ah, mja5000, do you really know the type of weapons? If you really know about how damage type works, you wouldn't post a such thing.


Both flaks and carriers are heavy, and LFs does anti-heavy damage, that means against carriers and flaks they do 150% damage.

Flaks do 25% damage to LFs.

Both fighter and bomber do 50% damage against LFs.

With similar money, LFs will tear apart carriers and flaks.


Again, it never happens in real life because of LRFs.


And I am talking about online playing.

FYI in 1.05 flaks worked quite well for LRFs counter.

They ruined this by nerfing flaks for carriers, thus making unfortunate consequences (flaks not being viable counter to LRFs)

Actually I had less worries about LRFs in 1.05 than 1.1.

In 1.1 you need to mass LRFs no matter what you do, and you must go for carriers thereafter.

The importance of LRFs got greater, not lesser.

Bingo.  Sins is like Risk.  You can't play a good game of Risk in 20 minutes.

But if you want a fast game, just play the included small maps, so everyone knows where everything is and the first one who gets to planet X or builds [insert ship type here] virtually always wins.  Better yet, uninstall Sins and go play Red Alert 3.  There's boobs in it too.  Much better than Sins.

hehe...he said boobs.

Good analogy with Risk by the way, you could also insert Axis & Allies or Twilight Imperium as another good analogy here.  Point is to see the true beauty and scope of this game...it is meant to be played for hours not be a twitch-fest.

Remember though, the online community is highly based on shorter (2hr avg) games that are high intensity aggressive games. It don't think it would be a good idea to alienate those folks that want to play online.