Supply lines

sorry if i didnt get this, but what would the ammo be for?

To shoot stuff of course . Each time you shoot your ammo goes down (a bit like antimatter now but for weapons). That way if you by-pass defenses and go to undefended planets in the rear, you can only do a limited amount of damage until your ammo runs out, instead of keep on shooting. That way you can still do economic damage, but not take out whole planets systems.

And the only way to have "unlimited" ammo is when you have a continuous jump line to a friendly planet. So if you send a fleet to attack the enemy and you want to continue attacking, you have to take out enemy planets and defensive structures before you can proceed.

That sounds interesting. It would unballance the game though, as the vasari can jump almost anywhere on the map at will. So the supply line could be established with their level 6 capital ship that has the jump ability (ANYWHERE)

interesting.. tough like Mori said, would terribly inbalance the game, not just vasari having a huge advantage with their temporary phase gate, but if you plan on attacking a heavily defended world, and between your empire and your desired target lies 1 (or more) neutral extractors, this means u get no ammonution?  defense would have an unfair advantage

also  being able to attack somebody's rear planet, even tough itsj ust to help your ally, whos under attack, might get difficult if you have no nearby planets,  defense would get to easy,

if you rly dont want people slipping in, use phase jump inhibitors.. those things really work well, and are worth installing on bottleneck planets, or any other planet wich might get attacked soon

A game called Conquest Frontier Wars did this, it was a game quite like Sins in some ways but the max systems was 16 and not at all what most Sins maps are like.

It was small time and doing this for a game like Sins would just be annoying than helpful.

What I meant is, those lines when you look at the star map, connecting the planets if there is a path there without an enemy planet or defensive structure, instead of those Vasari phase stabilizer. Neutral planets do not block anything. In my opinion phase jump inhibitors die too fast. You need to spend a lot of resources to protect it as well. And on maps with no choke points it's even worse.

Supply lines are a nice idea but they should be for planets and outposts (defensive structures maybe?), not for attacking fleets. Nerf raiding fleets and you make the game's problems more severe - it already favours defensive play and sometimes games drag on too long. It is already quite challenging to raid inside a hostile empire - you'll have a hard time colonizing any beach heads, the defenders can appear at any moment, they have staging areas nearby, defensive structures... not to mention your supply line of fresh units will be cut because the enemy may be able to attack any of your reinforcements while they are in transit through hostile gravity wells.

If you want more easily defensible areas, try playing maps with more pronounced choke points, or maybe try Entrenchment? Use repair bays and multiple defensive fleets, they'll make the progress of hostile fleets slower.

Well, thinking about it....... and if a stucture (like a tradeport where the ships follow your fleet) was used. You could potentionally have (supply lines) go through a neutralized planet. That would also make them loot for pirates. MP can make for some sneaky attack tactics. Deadly to have a fleet cut off from their own.

Supply lines should work like a hybrid trade/culture entity. Linked to fleets, or planets fleets have neutralized.

I like it.

I wonder if it can be modded in

Actually StikkyPixie I think your idea is very very good!!  I like the idea of establishing a baseline for the ammuntion, and your idea of a continuous line back to the homeworld is a unique and interesting one, in this way, the game plays pretty much as it does now, but introduces those instances where if the line is cut, then only a limited amount of ammunition remains to those fleets that are cut off. I like it alot and it sounds balanced and makes good sense. I dont believe it will increase the amount of time a game takes to play appreciably as those moments of ammunition cut off will require strategic planning on the players part, and small time addtions, but not unduly so, and it seems to me those times will make the play more "realistic" haha, if it is possible to have a far future space warfare scenario more "real". But i like it, it throws in a new element to consider, and as a teacher once said in an english class i took, any story is all about the limits and faults of the characters and how they overcome them. With the introduction of your supply lines idea into the game, it would make those times when i run out of ammuntion more intense and it becomes a "do something" point. If i didnt have that, i might merrily continue to go from planet to planet haphazardly and there is little or no "tension" until i reach the enemy in their corner of the system. But this way, the tension is more often, and can be established by something as small as local raiders, or pirates or indeed enemy forces that are attacking a planet you have left behind and not developed.

The game is long now, some games last for days at a time, that this doesnt seem to me to make it any more unbearable. As a matter of fact the reason the game is so long in the first place is because the players have said they want more realistic build times, more realistic research times, longer transit times between planets, or less money flow because it makes the options, ships and researches to realistic. Anyway, i like your idea alot. And would like to suggest an additional thought, which of course you may or may not agree with. But ever since HomeWorld i have liked the idea of limiting factors, like your supply lines, and like the "fuel" on the the fighters and the corvettes which of course required refueling. Or "foodstuffs", which of course wasnt in a game, but it sounds reasonable, which means we have to dock on an oxygen planet, say a terran planet every so often with "foodstuffs" and "oxygen" to replenish. In addition, there could be beam weapon "cores" (in effect crystals that have a certain life span, say 1800 seconds or 30 minutes? Or whatever seems reasonable). The same could be done for "phase technology" by the vasari, as they usually have a large margin of superiority over the tec and the advent, that there might be some base "phase mineral" that is required to be replaced in order to continue using the phase technology, meaning not just weapons, but also the phase jump technology and the phase out protection that many of their craft use.

In my mind what your idea, and my suggestions to carry that forward to other items in the game as well does, is make the game have more "events" to deal with, not just enemy fleets, or weapon numbers, and thus makes the game more interesting!!     Wouldnt it be cool, to have a small advent fleet cut off from their home planet making a run from a large vasari enemy fleet run into a planet where the tec have 20 marza's waiting, only to discover that the marza's are out of ammunition, and are forced to either ignore the advent, or to ram them in an effort to disable them. And what if the tec attack a planet in line with the advancing vasari fleet? Only to have that fleet now have limited ammunition and facing not only a sizable reinforcement from the tec on one side, but the homefleet of the advent coming to the rescue?    Haha, it sounds wonderful to me!!!  What it does is make the game more interesting, and if it is interesting then to be honest i dont care how long a game takes. Do you remember going through the levels in Diablo and spending hours trying to get the loot and not die at the hands of the skeletons or the goblins? Haha, i used to spend hours and hours, until my parents of course said too much is too much, but my meaning is, that it was interesting, and therefor i was caught up in it, and enjoying every minute.    Keep the suggestions coming as far as i am concerned, not everyone will agree, but you know what, if the devs had toggles for things like this, those of us that wanted them could have them, and relish them, and those that didnt could decide to leave the toggle off.

Anyway, that is my opinion of your cool idea, and my small suggestions to go along with it. Hope you like it, and I hope, though of course i have no idea if the devs will even consider it. But to my mind, it makes it more interesting, and that is a big big thing. 

Sincerely,

-Teal

I believe, like Crowsbane, that instead of having to have a straight line to the homeworld it would be better to have Ammo-transports. Little ships that establish supply lines. Think about it, if you used he direct line to homeworld stratagy how would you attack the enemy if they were in anotrher system? You would have to go through a sar and you would not have any supply lines, so it would be impossible to capture enemy planets in a seperate system!

Samurye.

I've considered something like this for my mod. As it is right now, "ammo" might not work so well, but making antimatter a type of resource might work. Here is my plan so far:

All ships have 0 antimatter regeneration. One ship with a very large supply of antimatter, (right now it's the colonizer/mothership), will have an "AbilityGiveAntimatter" and "AbilityTakeAntimatter". Then they will be the only ships that can take and give antimatter.

Then I'm going to use the Psi tactical structure that gives antimatter be the only producer of antimatter in the game (for all the races in my mod). 

I also really wanted supply lines like you suggested where pirates/privateers can take out trade ships and limit antimatter. I originally tried this with culture though and created a massive memory leak that slowed the game to 1fps .

If anyone has any technical ideas or could help with this, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

EDIT*

Also, does anyone know where I can find the antimatter used for phase jumps?

I will have to check Tkins, but i think it is in the gameinfo gameplay.constants file. Let me check. Nope, not there, sorry. I will have to ask about myself, but if i find out before you I will let you know, okie?

Take care,

-Teal

p.s i think the supply ships idea is good, but i can still see a "string of planets" even from another star system as still being okie to use for the unlimited ammunition. It would involve coding but no new graphics to make it work. But the supply ships, as i believe they used for fuel in HW2 did indeed add a nice and realistic touch to the game.   Either way is fine by me, dont forget to throw in the foodstuffs, the oxygen, the weapons "cores" and well... just a throw in idea, what about making escape pods for ships crews just before the ships explode? That would be a nice touch as well... I better stop now, before i get another dozen ideas and really get off topic.

-Teal

Maybe it was the original HW that had them - stock HW2 had none such. In Sword of the Stars you also have tanker ships, fuel is a nice touch there but then again some fleets may be stranded just before they reach their target and you might never notice

Was thinking of that antimatter thing myself... AM supply ship should be very easy to add in a mod.

As mentioned above, "Conquest: Frontier Wars" had supply lines. Each ship had a bar associated with it and when the bar got to empty, they had no more ammo to fire. Ships could "re-supply" by moving within the resupply radius of either a friendly planet, space station, or supply ship. It's been awhile, but I think that firing and even just moving around depleted a ship's supply bar.

It made for interesting tactics. It made deep strikes interesting because you had take enough supply ships along with you. Also, if you were defending, you wanted to take out your enemy's supply ships pronto to blunt the attack. Supply ships also needed to be resupplied after awhile, heading back to a friendly planet to do so. Made you focus on more of a "take and hold" strategy than deep strikes.

I don't want to make things too overly complicated. That's why I suggested the lines instead of supply ships. My problem when I play against several AI players, the moment I make an attack, I'm jumped by a whole fleet forcing me to bring my fleets back. If the AI were smarter it would just continue jumping to planets in the rear wrecking havoc to my economy. I just looked for a way to allow damage, but limit it somewhat.

it wont work all you need ais a huge fleet block the enemy fleet build a starbase and boom bye supply line and you might get luckly and not need the fleet. you did say Defences would cut supply lines. since th stations dont need you to control gravity well to build them

i think that supply ships make a lot of sense, both logically and as a game mechanic. if you were in command of a deep strike mission, wouldnt you bring resupply ships along with you? its also probably a lot easier to create. i have absolutely no modding experience, so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that it would be a lot simpler to take Tkins' idea than create a entirely new culture-like thing. however, it would work better if the resupply ship were a separate ship, as this would create a whole new level of tactical and strategic options

Ammunition is hard coded as far as i know. I have been in the files but can see no way to limit or refresh ammunition or fuel for that matter, let alone the foodstuffs and oxygen that i would like to put in the game.

-Teal

but why apart from the Tec and Varsari they use missiles but i aint seen the Advent use them most ships use ENERGY based weapons (Supply line of durcell batteries). I see a good basis for it i do but think of the races need for them Tec Missiles and Rail gun Ammo Varsari missiles Advent ????.Refuelling hmm guess that could work but what Fuel do the ships run on??.

you dont want the game too hard it has to be acceptable to all RTS players not just a simple few that few dont bring the money in

If I had to say, I'd say the ships run on Antimatter.

ok then Anti matter tankers and when they explode they explode taking out nearby ships that would be good a kinda sucide run on an enemy fleet with antimatter tanks

KAMIKAZE!!! *BOOM!*

Samurye.

Would make for cool explosions though . Oh well thanks for the input. Let's wait and see, maybe I'll get better at this game .