[balance suggestion]Fighters damage vs Caps

Hehe...I hate it when fighters chase down my cap too. 

That said, I'm curious to see if the new Entrenchment enhancements to targetting allows flak to perform better.

I think 50 % dmg. is ok

otherwise carriers woud become more and more unimportant for me.

Why does 33% never get any love? What does 25% have that 33% doesn't?

Damage Shared 33%

As am I.  I still build flak, but just enough to give me a small edge and allow the other guys carriers to run out of AM.

Im really looking towards the 150% -> 200% buff for LFs vs Heavy Armour. That would be sweet.

Or just a blatant DPS increase.  I have been maintaining that LFs counter carriers, and I still do.  However, I have come to realize that when faced with an LRF with 20 DPS and 75% or an LF with 10 DPS and 150%, I have to build one of each.  Those LFs are just too fragile against LRFs, and if your opponent is good, he will have plenty of LRFs to counter your LF spam.  The only thing that makes me still buy the LF is that fighters/bombers only deal 50% damage and the LFs are faster than the carriers.

If LRFs did 125% instead of 150% to LFs , then we would get one hell of a game.

Pay attention IC!!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHHA no.

If you even tried something like this you would have to neuter the fighter damage vs LRFs.

I think the underlying issue here isn't the relative strengths of these units, but the rocks/paper/scissors balance that's going on between them. 

I do think most people could agree that fighters are too strong overall, while LF's are too weak considering their hard counter is usually on the field after only a few minutes.  However, tweaking these values is never going to change the fact that we have RPS balance, and however well that kind of game is designed it's always going to have an underdog.  If scissors beats paper slightly faster than paper beats rock, most people mass rocks and scissors and largely ignores paper.

lol yep i see that.. mind u , this is what i lobbied for back in 1.05 when it might have actually worked

How about a research that allows mit to go higher? Would solve lrf focus fire and fighter fire vs caps.

That would be sooooooo sweet

I second the original poster, fighters and bombers should have reduced dmg against capitol ships, the caps just do not live up to thier cost and seem very weak.

4 Things need done...

- 150%->200% , LF vs Heavy Armor

- 50%->25% , Fighter vs Capital Armor

- Rebalance of Flak Frigates

- Rebalance of Sieges to make them viable as a strategy

I Disagree with the 150%->200% LF vs Heavy Armor.

Just increase DPS by 200% for LFs.  Each LF has half the DPS of an LRF, which is gay sauce if you ask me.

EDIT:  I meant 100%.  200% would be sweet.

I agree with how. One of the probs is lf do what 50% to everything but ha? Thats why you can send 5 disciples to a roid and a siege and cobalt can almost kill one of your dicsiples Do you guys think the lrf focus fire against caps id fair? IMO I think hc should be the only ships with a good advantage against caps.Most people dont have 50-75 of thos at one time.

Oh and it would nice to up their mobility so they can keep inside their firing range to kill carriers better.They dont stop in time and then they cant accelerate in time.

What are you talking about?  Increase dps by 200%? That's crazy. That would mean they would have raw dps of 30, and with 30% 39!  Those would be the only ships I would ever use.  Only LFs dps I would change would be to increase Vasari LF DPs a bit.  Maybe from 10.5 to 11 or even 11.5.

LF do not have half the DPS of LRFs, I tihnk you are making a hyperbole here. But if you are serious about balance, we should use fatual numbers.

TEC

LF: Cobalt       DPS: 9.5 Supply: 5  Max upgrade + 20%

LRF: Javelis     DPS: 11 Supply: 4  Max upgrade + 30%

Yes the DPS is lower in Cobalt, but that's because they are very easy to aquire.  LRF has about 50% more dps than Cobalt on per fleet suppyl basis. If you gave them more DPS you would probably end up with a guy building second frigate factory before cap factory and spamming them the whole duration of the match. 

The thing that sticks out the most is the damage types.  LFs have very low multiple vs V Heavy and Capital ships.  Which I guess makes sense because they are so easy to aquire. Maybe giving them 75% vs Very Heavy would make them more formidible in late era fleets. Though I think LRFs have too good of multiple versus too many ships. They have no 50% multiple at all.  I think 50% multiple vs V heavy or even cap ship would be in order.

I have used LFs a lot lately, and I find them useful as they are.

Now, Mindseye what you point out is already in Entrenchment as I was told.  I don't have Entrenchment myself, but I was told they can fire on the run pretty well.  But I'm not sure if I am too happy with this. 

As I think if you want to really get to carriers there is soemthing you can use, mainly it's the Innertia Field ability for Vasari or the Intercept ability of Kodiak.  Thou I do feel they are very far up the tech.  Maybe they can which them around and give those abilities to the LFs instead?  And move them to tier 4-5? That way they would be able to close distance but it wouldn't be straight out the gate with no research involved. And you can give their abilities to HCs.

Deleted.  See post below.

Ok, here's a more detailed analysis (DPS=damage per second, FP=Fleet Points):

LFs

Disc - 8.5 DPS/4 FP = 2.1 DPS/FP

Cobalt - 9.5 DPS/5 FP = 1.9 DPS/FP

Skrim - 10.5DPS/7 FP = 1.5 DPS/FP

LRFs

Illum - 16.6 DPS/6 FP = 2.77 DPS/FP (ok, the side beams are in there too, but skilled players use them)

LRM - 11 DPS/4 PF = 2.75 DPS/FP

Assail - 13 DPS/6 FP = 2.17 DPS/FP

Ratios:

1.7/2.77 = 0.77

1.9/2.75 = 0.69

1.5/2.17 = 0.69

Avg Ratio = 0.72

Conclusion:  Ok, so LFs have a DPS of 72% that of an LRF.  Therefore, I suggest that LFs DPS be increased by 40% (1/0.72).  Theres my suggestion, and I'm sticking to it.

EDITED to revise disc's FPs.  Thanks Cykur

Disc are 4 FP, therefore 2.125 DPS/FP

Is it that obvious I don't play Advent much?

Its not really that simple to base everything on raw dps tho because of the different types of weapons fire each uses.

LF:

DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:CapitalShip 0.5
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryLight 1.0
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Light 0.75
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Medium 1.0
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Heavy 1.5
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryHeavy 0.5

LRF:

DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:CapitalShip 0.75
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryLight 1.0
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Light 1.0
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Medium 1.5
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Heavy 0.75
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryHeavy 0.75

As you can see they both recieve a 50% bonus to their counter but the LRF uses its DPS on a broader spectrum. That means LRF on average uses more dps than a LF.

Dropping the DPS of a disciple by 25%:

8.5x.75=6.375x.4(60% mit)=2.55

Um...I know all about damage bonuses.  My point is that LFs don't deal enough damage to begin with.  But anyway, if I am interperting what you are saying, you want the LFs to have higher DPS and damage bonus against heavy armor?

Yeah I know you do I was just pointing it out. I think 150% to heavy is fine(maybe 160-175 would be good too) I would like to see a small increase in DPS and since it has the worst DPS of all battle ships make it kind of a jack of all trades.Maybe something like this:

DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:CapitalShip 0.75
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryLight 1.0
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Light 1.0
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Medium 1.0
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Heavy 1.5
  DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryHeavy 0.75

This would make it more useful to have in a fleet but not much because its DPS is so low. Seems to me to make them counter carriers(which are usually escorted my LRF) you need 20-30 which is alot of cash and fleet for something that can really only damage one ship and gets shredded by LRF.Maybe this would help with the LRF + carrier spam which is hard to beat with LF+carrier as is right now. I know fighters shredd LRF and you might say use your fighters to kill his LRF but Im thinkin of an earlier game scenario where you only have one factory. I think in this case time plays a factor in your ability to counter.Say 15 kanracks(420sec) to 30(660sec) disciples.Thats a difference of 240 sec.Thats enough to build about 4 more carriers.So most likely he will have air superiority. Im not sure how much time plays a factor into the LF usefulness but every second counts when your bein rushed by a good vasari player