Mines in MP are ridiculously OP

This is why we increased the activation time of mines to 30 seconds. Using them offensively should be VERY difficult. They can't actually hurt you when the mine layer deploys them until the full 30 seconds has expired. This should be more than enough time to deal with them (our typical strategy is to just move our forces away from the mines).

Also, depending on what you mean by "one-shot", there maybe a bug with mines. If by one-shot you mean the mines instantly came out of the mine layer and blew up that is a bug. If by one-shot you mean the mines sat around for 30 seconds and then blew up killing your ships that is not a bug.

No, the mines detonated about 3 seconds after the mine-layer laid them. My ships were still turning around when the mines blew up and killed them all.

I suggest having a "construction time" of 30 seconds, where the minelayer sits helpless and immobile while the mines are being constructed. If the minelayer dies while the mines are building, the mines naturally don't show up.

Even with the supposed 30 second detonation time, they could still be used to force ships out of position offensively - a big deal in large battles. (A large group of your ships have to turn around and move while under fire - a recipe for disaster.) This can be done because the mine layer can charge in, instantly summon the mines and then either get away as the ships move or die and kill a large group of enemy forces. Having a construction time would fix this.

And, since they're mines, I feel they shouldn't have such a powerful OFFENSIVE utility.

You shouldn't be able to win later tier offensive battles by suicide rushing "defensive" units like Mine Layers into large scale combat, which even with the 30 second detonation time is still quite feasible. You force your opponent's units to turn around and move out of the way, or blow up in 30 seconds. As anyone who's micro'd a large scale late game battle knows, even the slightest movement or turning can swing a battle one way or another - let alone forcing a large section of units to retreat while under fire.

As it stands, between these two issues mine layers are ridiculously powerful offensively, when they shouldn't have any offensive utility whatsoever IMO.

We have attempted to reproduce the behavior you described, and in our beta 2 build vasari mines do not activate (i.e. be able to detonate on hostile targets) until after their 30 second activation delay has elapsed. Please send a recorded game file showing mines detonating prematurely.

Hi Guys.  John James here.

Cykur and I were playing him and some other guy.  What he said was not totally accurate.

I was able  to defeat his early fleet which were lrms and cap.  HC didnt come till later. The mines I deployed did take 30 secs to activiate.  BTW. They are expensive He fleed after he took out my cap and 2 lrms.  His fleet ran because I was able to make a starbase. I had the planet, So I made 4 miners total, and wanted to see how effective an offensive starbase would work.  So I jumped to  his planets. Quickly laid mines using 4 miners.  He of course went to that area without a scout. I was constantly laying mines because I had almost unlimited resource. He went right into the middle of the mine field.  He was also able to destroy the starbase I was trying to make at his grav.  

What is the time it takes to make a starbase at a hostile grav, neutral grav, and ally/owned grav?

BTW in that game I did not upgrade my fleet supply and Cykur used only 1/3 of his fleet trying to not roll the other guy and test the new features like starbases vs starbase.

Yes it was difficult to use mines as an offensive weapon, but I was able to  

I have the relpy if you guys still want it. So far I havent found any bugs execpt for that price of mines, more should be deployed for that price.

Are mine layers suppose to die if caught inside the mine field when the enemy comes into it and activate the mines?

From the get go I didn't believe the guy's story.  After my own testing I knew that mines had a delay before they got built.  I said to myself "either the guy is purposefully lying coz he's pissed that he just lost, or he's accidentally lying because he didn't use a scout and didn't realize that other previously laid mines were actually in the area."  Then I read the comment from John James.  Yeah, my instincts were totally right.

I wonder how often games are ruined, units are nerfed or adjusted, etc. due to complaints like this?  By the way, this guy seems like he wants no possibility whatsoever for offensive use of mines, such as being able to "force ships out of position."

Please do not implement his idea for 30 second construction time where minelayer is frozen and helpless, or whatever he said.

mines already have a 30 sec delay before they cloak.  So a scout is not needed to destroy the mines.

Then his problem was simply a case of poor target calling I.E. should have focused ont eh mine layers first. And should have had flak with his fleet to help defend from the mines. Scouts would have also helped. To me sounds like he was lacking fleet diversaty. Not enought ships supporting each other more spam then balance.

I...... you should wait a  bit before posting after things not ending up the way you think. (In Scotish accent)

With that being said, after reading your post. I though, well you never tried to counter the mines. Just kill the minelayers. Unfortunatly for you. You were up against experts who play to be the best. It sucks when the quality enemy is stellar. If you could watch the replay I'd say go back and see where you humped the bunk. Don't know if it's working though.

For the last punch. (Sorry mate) While you were teching and spending an arsload aquiring HC's You could have possesed a balanced flt and SB that if not countered what was happening. Would have gone a long way towards making it happen.

GGaming

This story reminds me of when I played the number one ranked player in Universe at War: Earth Assault.  I actually way outbuilt him with units, and was higher teched than him.  I sent all my units into his base.  He was playing Masari, and he blew up one of his matter engines.  He got every single unit I sent in.  I sent another wave, he blew another matter engine, I lost everything else.  After that it was about time to say "gg - thanks for kicking my ass" and that was about it.  Infuriating - I felt I had outplayed him, but what could I do?

Ah, I guess my mistake then was not using a scout - I know for a fact that when my units attacked in the gravity well he was building a starbase in the mines detonated pretty damn fast, not 30 seconds like they're saying. I suppose that was because the mines were cloaked or something though, not because he deployed them immediately and then they detonated like I thought.

And I must admit, I was pretty pissed. I didn't care at all about the starbases which is why I didn't mention them. They're not an issue, if it was just starbases I could've handled it. I was just annoyed by the mines.

And if you look at the replay, you'll notice I DID focus fire on the minelayers quite a bit. The problem is they'd deploy their mines and run away - forcing me to chase them and slowing my whole offensive down while starbases are being built.

Anyway, what exactly counters the mines? If you have a scout, can you fire on them? Having a "balanced fleet" wouldn't help if it got AOE'd to death just like the Skarovas did.

Sorry I miss stated above. When I said,"Just kill the minelayers." I was being a smart arss. The underlying point I was tring to get across. Making one ship class overall is ussually a bad idea. Makes it harder to counter an enemy. HC are not what they use to be. Their are more solid counters available to all units. What the devs are looking for from both the winners and losers. Is did everything happen the way they programed it too.

Zeratul, watch out.  These are some of the best players in the game, and all they are doing is playing around with the new units and seeing what kind of tactics they can come up with.  The sky is the limit.  If they can come up with something, they have an edge when the game comes out (well, even more of an edge than they already have).  These are the guys that will discover whether some tactic is OP, they will ferret out and discover any imbalances, and then use those imbalances to full effect.  It's what they live for.  What was probably the most infuriating for you was the realization that they were just toying with you, not even building real fleets or whatever, just trying stupid or ridiculous things just to see if those things would work, which they DID, meanwhile you were actually busting your ass.  To them it was like beating up a cripple, but to you - the cripple - you felt like you were busting your ass trying to win the game and just lost to some BS tactic.  I bet this guy laughed his ass off when your fleet went "boom" after that minelayer charge, and he high-fived whoever happened to be sitting next to him when it happened, just imagining the look on your face.  I'm sure it was enough to make you want to kick the computer over and walk away.  I wouldn't have stood any better chance myself.  I'd steer well clear if I were you.  I saw these guys online the same night you were playing them, and I steered clear myself (NO INSULT WHATSOEVER intended to these guys).

JJ was basically using his entire economy to build mines and starbases.  The mines are not cheap.  Your HC fleet is not an optimal fleet to fight mines.  If you had some scouts and flak in the mix, you actually might have been able to protect the HC's to let them do their job.

That said, yeah, mines are really powerful ...when you hit them.  Otherwise, they are pretty hugely expensive.

Alright, thanks for the tips. I used to play a lot of Sins about a year ago (or more) when HCs were the sh*t and what you went for every game if you were playing seriously. I just came back to playing Sins three days ago.

Clearly, that has changed. What is the best new strategy for Vasari in this game? Should I just go for a balanced mix of units, like HCs + flak + scouts, or is there a better general plan to go for now?

And yeah, it definitely felt like I was busting my ass to win that game only to get slapped across the face and watch my fleet get vaporized with little effort. Twice.

Fleet Battles are a good way to avoid the mine problem too. park your ships next to his. if he blows yours he blows his.