Starbases / Fleet / Torpedo cruisers

IC have already stated that torp cruisers are overpwered, and theyre going to address that.

On your other point, I think a fleet is perfectly capable of taking out starbases, as long as you have 2+ caps in that fleet, and they arent only support ships. Remember that a fully upgraded starbase costs upwards of 10-15 thousand. you cant expect them to go without anything less than a fight.

now with structures having their own armor type, does anyone know, how much dmg capships make against them? because I thought it could be an interesting twist if capships were one of the few things half-way decent against starbases (other than structure busters, bombers of just plain numbers). after all, the banks were remodeled to fend off large amounts of weak enemies rather than few pretty strong enemies. could give ppl a bit more of an incentive to use them, if it was like in planet bombing. caps can do it, but not as efficiently as the specialised ship can (if you take cost into account), but they have better survivability.

I don't really know... I've been playing Vasari vs. unfair AIs the last two days and while I have been truly amazed by the damage and survival potential of my starbases - in fact, I have yet to lose a single one that has been backed up by 25 tactical points worth of stationary defenses (standard regeneration/weapon jammers/fighter hangars/jump inhibitor setups), that has a lot more to do with the AI playing poorly and not knowing how to cope with them than anything else (fewer weak frigates, more serious firepower, feel free to take out the support buildings and hangars first, and if the AI decides to run away from the fight, try taking out the jump inhibitor before the fleet turns tail even if it means sacrificing some units and the remaining fighters and bombers...)

I am really happy that the answer to taking out a Starbase isn't massing frigates but coming in with the cruisers, the capital ships, and the bombers.

The Starbase I've found best vs. the AI is an Assault Systems 2/2, Defensive Enhancements 4/4, Frontal Deflector Shields 2/2 and it is truly awesome, but when built with 2/2 Enslaved Labor and 2/2 Optimized Construction it costs a total of 17875 credits, 2660 metal, and 1600 crystal. Let's face it, at that price and capable of defending exactly one system, it had better be awesome at wiping out badly composed fleets that use poor tactics.

The AI inability to deal with it is worrying and the expansion cannot go live with the SP vs AI balance in the state it is now, but since it was reported in another thread that the AI is being pretty extensively rewritten, this is probably one of those issues that should be put on hold until that has been done unless the current starbase firepower is forcing stalemates in MP.

At least beta is finally feeling like the title - it really is possible to dig in!

From /gameinfo/gameplay.constants,

Capital ships and their abilities, Heavy Cruisers, and Anti-module (torpedo ships) all deal 100% damage to module (Starbases).*

Bombers and LRMs deal 75% damage. [But LRMs are rather squishy]

The remainder deal 50% damage.

Fundamentally, bring out the big guns to take down upgraded Starbases, not the popguns.

* And anti-module deals 1% damage to everything except module, incidentally, which is why the torpedo ships, despite their very high base damage, are practically useless against anything but structures despite their big and bright explosions.

and at that price you still have glaring weakness: no counter to squads. of course you can use other stuff for that, but then it's also more expensive. I for one like to have a hangar upgrade or two on my sb's. though standard issue hangars are also good now and all come with a new upgrade too.

Indeed, Shadowhal - it is a rather glaring weakness, for massed bombers hurt. I did state that this was versus the AI and primarily in sectors where I can build (at least) 25 points of tactical defense to get some fighter cover, even if only minimal. Against a human player, priorities might change, but those beefed up Vasari starbases are so damned tough that once I've slapped on the Assault Systems and full Defensive Enhancements (step 3->4 is truly beastly now), it seems to me to make much more sense to slap on additional survival systems rather than going for 8 fighter squadrons that'll be chewed up if the AI enemy is using a serious number of squads (or bringing flak frigates).

I haven't tried the TEC or Advent starbases yet, but the Vasari ones when set up for max survivability + Assault Systems made me a believer in the "oh, the AI brought a full fleet to my isolated starbase - it might need help in 5-10 minutes time, probably a handful of flak frigates and a few enforcers" principle.

-- That would never, ever, work against a human. Apart from the bomber issue, a particularly nasty human might decide to surround the starbase rather than having almost all the ships firing from in front. I haven't actually tested that it works that way, but the description of the Frontal Deflector Shields certainly suggests that it does.

yeah, as you say, there are arguments for both and that's why I like the starbases so much. you can argue for hangars and go 'well, if the enemy shows up with bombers you're toast', but you can also go for more hp/ weapons or you rely on some extra defenses, don't isolate the sb too much and instead slap some ecnomic upgrades on it. but you can't have all of it. choice. and I love it.

Yep, and if playing e.g. Advent, in a system I would want to defend I'd be much more tempted to go for a Starbase with massed hangars with mass disorientation and meteor flinging behind a line of their (with expansion techs) very strong defensive structures maximizing the use of their combined arms approach. I haven't tried it, but at least on paper it looks like a great idea to use the Starbase more to control the situation while the static defenses (and any fleet in the vicinity) does the actual killing with an extra 14 squadrons helping - and it should be comparatively much easier to take out the enemy's torpedo ships (if any) before they significantly hurt the Starbase that way. Does this work in practice as well as in theory? Beats me - time will tell. It might be the worst idea since pre-sliced cucumber.

Very happy with the balance so far! An upgraded Starbase still can't stop a well balanced fleet.  They can however generally survive if you have a response fleet within a reasonable distance.  Also people with too many assault ships pay the price when they have to run away.  Always build interdictors!

I was just about to make a thread about the same thing, wow!

Having 3 orgovs or starfish things with some flack cover park just out of reach of your 10000 credit starbase and blow it to bits with any fight is not my idea of fun . Still I don't think the anti stucture units are over powered just that they have too much range, if they would lower the range of the anti structure units it would force them to be in the direct line of fire, but don't forget this must also account for researchable range bonuses too so that with all bonuses starbases still have longer range. Flak turrets IMO aren't needed as badly,but still would be nice. A starbase with 4-8 fighters and 2-6 more in hangar def can easily fend off 30+ bombers, but 3 orgovs with good fighter cover and you're screwed ! The point of starbases is to be able to build/upgrade it and not need to phase your ships over to deal with the threat from that flank/planet.

Now on to the topic of starbase power: Starbases are not overpowered as is, the reason for the increase in power in beta 2.0 is the starbases weapon banks which can now multi task, not doing more damage persay, but killing 2-3 ships at once. If you rember the original starbases they were very vulnerable, they could be destroyed by a pirate raid or a light AI attack, the range and multi-bank increase is good and hopefully here to stay.

Well that's the galaxy as I see it!  Join us next time for ninja pizza! Why ninja pizza? I dunno, ask the gnomes.

Hi there,

I'm not in the Beta... /cry... So I was wondering if you all would be so kind as to answer a question for me?

Q: The torpedoes fired from these torpedo cruisers --- can the torpedoes be shot down w/ flakk as if they were strike craft? Or are you pretty much just screwed once they are let fly?

Thanks much!

-Itharus

No, they can't be shot down

I feel  starbases and the torpedos are fine the way they are. Due to te fact starbases cost so much to fully upgrade and they are more to slow the dvance not to defeat entire armoda's now if you in the spot that torpedos and anti air show up and ur fleet is to far away you could always leave you self a few slotcounts for emerancys were your starbase can pop out a few heavy's air support aa frigs w/e you want to counter doesnt seem to hard to me given you enough time to  bring in a counter atk or o just chase them away at the time.

If anything they could have improved the look of tecs starbase the cube looking thing just doesnt do it for me and a chance for any modders would be a cool idea would be to enlarge/mod the civ/milatary buildings into a new starbase given it more of a real base type look than a death star that it is now "just an idea"

would be a good idea f you were able to shoot them down

I actually think it's the coolest looking starbase Especially with the huge beam turrets on the corners.

Hello again,

Thanks for the quick answer, Annatar11

It's a pity they can't be shot down; the anxiety of watching your doom encroach from out of range, and hoping that your flakk can save you would be fuckin' tense.

-Itharus