Solanus Adjudicator now too weak (Beta 2.5)

Try it again against Starbases. If they don't work there either then its something, but a Starbase would rip Illuminators to shreds.

I don't think so. lets take a fully upgraded starbase with both weapons and hull upgrade.

if you want to make it fast you would take 20 Adjudicators that will cost you:

- credits 22000 / metal 4200 / crystal 2700

- 360 fleet supply

and you get:

+ 500 average dps on 5 targets

+ hull 17200 / shields 9800

+ stay out of range

- can only engage buildings

- base armor 1

now the same calculations with 60 illuminators:

- credits 22800 / metal 3600 / crystal / 3300 (need 800 more cred, 800 less metal and 600 more crystal)

- 360 fleet supply

and you get:

+ 1080 average dps on 3 targets (more than 200% the damage of the Adjudicators)

+ hull 37200 / shields 33000 (that is 216% more hull and 336% more shields)

+ base armor 2

+ can engage and kill anything

I didn't calculate the exact bank damage here as I don't have the numbers but you can see the illuminator is clearly superior  even though you have to be in engagement range of the starbase you still win.

"Stay out of range" is the key thing. With the beta 2 weapon bank changes, Starbases completely oblitterate groups of small ships. Take the three Starbase 100+ damage guns, and have them all firing at FOUR of those Illuminators at once.

They might still win (maybe, they can't bring all their DPS to bear against a Starbase), but its going to be a bloodbath. Against a fully upgraded Starbase with stuff like frontal shields and meteor control? Good luck.

the problem is that the starbase won't live long enough to make a big dent in that 60 illu fleet.

the illu has front bank damgage of 53.5 meaning the starbase will be hit with 3210 dps!

not counting in any weapon upgrades you will certainly have by that point.

even if you calculate in shield migration, regeneration and repair of the starbase it will be shot down in less than 30 seconds, no way it can shoot down ANY ship in that time.

and that is just blank theory, usually I would replace 10 illus with 10 guardians + 1 cap with shield regeneration and that starbase is gone for good long before any defenders could arrive.

53.5? that can't be the per second value. last time I checked that was more like 15 or so and since the info card summes it up, the front bank alone probably does even less than that. seriously, the group you desribed would get beaten by a starbase with 2 to 3 military upgrades, that I am quite confident of.

but go make your experiment, attack a starbase with a bunch of illums and guardings. I'm curious of the result. report back in.  that's what beta is for after all.

Yeah as Shadowhal said that's per-shot damage, not DPS. That, and when you factor in the starbase mitigation, armor and innate shield/hull regen, and that it can attack 4 illuminators at once..

The Starbase would lose eventually if the Illuminators have some backup (or win if it has some backup from repair bays/turrets), but you'll lose a lot of them as well.

ah yes, then my first calculation with 18 dps was correct.

still way more damage than those Adjudicator and of course more flexible.

i'll give it a shot and try my cap + 50 illus + 10 guardians on 1 fully upgraded vasari starbase.

and then of course 60 illus alone and see how many die

Also try it with the Vassie's base having either the shield or the debris suck researched, since people probably would do that Trying it against a Meteor Storm Transcendia with just 60 Illuminators will probably be pretty comic now, since it can just nuke them all

but with the upgraded vortex the starbase would smoke any adjudicator fleet for sure, but yes i was planning on going with 2x weapon, 4x hull and 2x shield upgrade.

that is maximum possible defense and we'll see what happens.

of course I will try the 20x Adjudicator too, even micromanage them out of range

Yeah, I'm curious about the results too. Its possible the Adjudicators were over-nerfed in terms of damage, some tests would bear that out. But their range IS an advantage against non-Vasari Starbases.

Well I think part of the design intention behind the Adjudicator is that they can also attack 5 targets at once, which make them more ideal to breaking massed defenses. The Ogrov might do more damage, but it's single target.. which may help it kill a starbase faster, but if that starbase is surrounded with 35-point defenses those won't have a scratch on 'em.

I had 3 marza dreadnaughts guarding my fully upgraded starbase 2 attack/3 hull/2 docking boon upgrades. Two of the Marzas are level 10 and the third is level 7 so far. No matter what has come to attack me, i can take them all out with extreme ease. Missile barrage, the 4th special ability of the marza, it does 150 damage x20 to ALL ships within range. 9,000 damage nearly instantly to all targets within firing range of the Starbase. This is an uncolonizable asteroid field, so I don't have any extra help like repair bays or turrets or mines either. I consider myself thoroughly Entrenched.

My entire supporting fleet consists of Flak Frigates, about 40 of them to screen out snub fighters and bombers.

Only 2 ways into my Empire.

My 'backdoor' is guarded by a starbase sitting on the incoming lead side of the gravity well with 2 attack, 3 defense, 3 hanger upgrades and a 150 minefield  all around it. backed by 2 repair, 1 phase inhibitor and the rest of the tactical slots used up by gauss turrets. So far I haven't been attacked from that side since the incoming phase jump is from a pirate base

The question is would you want to use your heavy cruisers or long range adjudicators?

Neither, GoldenShadow. If I knew of the Marza deathtrap, I'd probably go for a fleet strike with one single intention: killing off as many of the Marzas as possible; that means capital ships, carriers, and possibly even LRMS and it means accepting punishing losses. Even if I lost everything but the capital ships, and perhaps even if I lost 2-3 of them, it would probably be worth it to remove highlevel Marzas from the game forever, especially when one had a chance to fight them without significant fleet support (not that the Starbase is insignificant in any way)

If one succeeded in removing the highlevel Marzas, one could always return at a later date with whatever solution to the starbase is preferable.

--- Against the backdoor, though, if forced to attack as advent and having to choose, those adjudicators sound very tasty with basic anti-strikecraft support since there are only 14 squadrons defending. They won't last long if the gauss cannons are individually targeted on focusfiring them down, but then, nothing would, so it is all about doing as much damage as possible while alive, and hitting 5 structures per shot sound ideal for that - much depends on what other ships you can send along, though. Is extensive shield repair through multiple motherships available? Got the battleships to attract fire, significantly increasing the lifetime of the adjudicators?  Then again, if the question is not which to use as part of a larger force, but which to use operating alone - then the question is none of them.

I had only time for 1 test so far.

took 60 illuminators - no tech upgrades - no other ships vs. 1 fully upgraded and researched TEC starbase.

I lost but the starbase had only 1500 HP and 0 shields left so it was a close call.

gonna try with 10 guardians and TIER 3 armor / weapon / shield upgrade tomorrow - that base is toast for sure

Not bad for the starbase though

Which is what should have happened, yay for the anti LR Ship spam Vs. SB

Sounds like it worked as intended.

I was in a game last night where I ran into a fully upgraded Argonov that also had hangar bay support. Tried attacking it with my fleet, which went badly. Ran like hell. Came back with 4 Ogrov torpedo cruisers and some flak support for them. They sat happily out of range blasting the Starbase. It took a while, but it was a lot more effective in the end. (Against a Vasari Starbase not so much since they would lose their range advantage.)

That's what my girlfriend said.

made just 2 new tests and it doesn't look good for the adjudicators.

all ships had weapons tech up to tier 5, starbase had full tech, 2 weapons, 2 hull, 2 fighter and 2 random other upgrades i didn't see.

1st fleet consisting of 3x capitals lvl 10, 30x illuminators, 10x guardians and 10x subjugators

fleet won with not even a scratch on it

2nd fleet consisting of 1 lvl 10 progenitor, 40 illuminators and 10 guardians

fleet won with just 4 illuminators lost

3nd fleet consisting of 20x adjudicators

fleet won but lost 10 of them due to the fighters.

the starbase was on a naked uninhabited planet with no other defenses left whatsoever.

now i'm really convinced that adjudicators are in fact not starbase killers but a very weak structure killer which needs desperate support from fighters and healing-ships.

hitting 5 targets at once can really clear any planet defense pretty quick if you keep them safe, but for the starbase they just need too much time.

That's not a fair comparison, really. You brought guardians and a progenitor with the illuminators but not the adjudicators? I mean, that's like 20000 regenerating shield points stacked on top of em.  And the poor adjudicators dont even get flaks...

2nd fleet consisting of 1 lvl 10 progenitor, 40 illuminators and 10 guardians

fleet won with just 4 illuminators lost

That is a pretty basic fleet. You guys should see what would happen with the egg plus kanracks. I have seen this used against sb and it is way to lethal.I would really be intereted in seeing the losses for this fleet vs a fully upgraded vasari sb.

i did this because of equal ressources.

if i gave the adjudicators guardians and flaks i would have to reduce them to 10-15 which wouldn't do much to a starbase but yes i can give it a try.

on other test I did with a buddy last night was:

1 fully teched and maxed out vasari starbase with no other defenses on a neutral world

vs.

20 fully upgraded and teched tec torpedo cruisers

the starbase won with ~1500 hull left and no shields.

since the adjudicators are much weaker and more expensive than the tec version you would need at least 30 of them to kill a starbase quick enough and of course take some protection and healing because they die really really fast.

still a normal fleet is faster, does more damage, can regenerate and repair and of course is more flexible when it comes to defense.

adjudicator = almost worthless right now.

OK so I did a test of my own.

I was vasari against hard advent.The advent sb had all weapons upgrades and I think all hull upgrades(14k hull and 8k shield).It also had fighter upgrades(think it had 10 squads)

I attacked it with level 10 egg,25 kanracks and 5 sentinels. I had 6 points of hull,4 points of shield, and 4 points of armor researched for my fleet.I lost my cap and 1 sentinel. This was with no micro but i sent my cap in ahead of the rest. In multiplayer this is 1\3 to 1\4 size of a later game fleet.

This comes out to 10000 creds\1625 metal\1125 crys for kanracks, 2000 creds\250 metal\160 crys for sentinels.

Poor Advent

you shouldn't use the egg alone for attacking the starbase or at least give it some overseers to back it up.

the disintegration comes in very handy when attacking starbases since it negates their very high armor.

It was a test. I could have microed it in and out and made sure it survived. The point is:

2nd fleet consisting of 1 lvl 10 progenitor, 40 illuminators and 10 guardians

fleet won with just 4 illuminators lost

Vasari only needed half of that fleet to defeat a fully upgraded sb. Not to mention a fully upgraded vasari sb has 32000 hp+shield. It repairs itself and can do 200% damage reduction to frontal aussalt(which is confusing) and you cant loiter at all. They have cheapest and more powerful mines. They get thier powerful ships and sb earlier then the others.

Im gettin off topic tho