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New Vasari Starbase is a Beast

New Vasari Starbase is a Beast

This thing is unstoppable when you have all 3 attack upgrades, 4 defense upgrades and a debris vortex upgrade. To help keep itself full of HP after killing everything in sight.  My whole plan was to get on a map with a single chokepoint into my territory against 3 teamed unfair AI. I had to really forsake my economy to rush the starbase to the chokepoint, which was a dead asteroid. I batrely had the first 3 defense upgrades and a couple of attack upgrades before the first massive waves of enemy ships attacked.

The key point is to make sure the asteroid stays colonized, and the AI won't move on to your juicy inner worlds. I kept reinforcing it with capital ships, but they were easily destroyed reapeated due to shear mass of vessels. The starbase was mostly unphased. the only thing that can even scratch it were torpedo cruisers. For those I just task all of my fighters and shift click each one.  The Starbase was perpetually at zero shields and full health. It never had any time to regenerate shields due to the constant war going on, but the debris vortex kept the hull HP very high.  There were a few times when I didn't notice some torpedo cruisers slip in and I got down to 13,000 HP/21,000HP. I was worried but soon after those torpedo ships were dead, my starbase had regenerated on its own.

Because of the massive carnage, I was putting low level capital ships in play and they would instantly level up because of the buffet of experience points in the gravity well.  Eventually, the AI fleets got to a point where I feared my starbase couldn't keep up. I was losing lvl 8 carrier caps like they were light frigates, and replacing them without a care, because they level back up so quick. My only fighters were supplied from just 4 hanger defenses and 4 carrier capitals.

The next jump out was a star, i eventually put 4 new starbases out there, but the AI basically ignores them . I upgrades them with colony pods and trade ports to try and help out my suffering economy of only 3 planets.I only had 2 crystal asteroids and I had to buy 95% of my crystal to upgrade.

Once I got enough weapons labs, i upgraded Hull, Armor and Shields and this thing is a total beast. It fears no one. It laughs at torpedo cruisers, slowly flies toward them and crushes them easily.  its main weapons do like 240 damage or something, plus like 170 or 180 for its secondary and third weapon systems. 24 armor.

With only 3 planets, my whole economy was based on colony pods and trade port from the starbases on those 3 worlds. I bought resources with my mass of credit income. because I didn't have the logistics to make trade structures, all of my logistics were tied up with weapons and empire labs.

Still, 3 Unfair AIs could not defeat me. Try it.

16,839 views 31 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting gotyaoi, reply 24
I know what you mean. In the earlier betas, I'd focus on starbases at my chokepoints. With the new AI behaviour being a bit more aggressive, this becomes completely impossible, as no matter how nice an early game starbase is, two AI fleets teaming up on it will take it down. Makes early game fleets more of a priority.
End of gotyaoi's quote

Actually, no, I found out over the weekend that this isn't completely true.  I'll give the details of the games I played below, but if you don't care, skip to the dashed line.

 

I did a few more games using the same custom map as before, over the weekend, to test this out.  It was actually one game done three times by restarting from earlier saves.  The key is that map had three basic chokepoints: Planet A was the chokepoint with Red and Purple; Planet B was the chokepoint with Blue (the weakest player); Planet C was the chokepoint to Green and Yellow.  B and C were only two jumps apart (meaning that in theory Blue or Green could hit either), A was on the far side of the empire.  Within those chokepoints was a far-superior group of planets to what the rest of the players had; out of 66 non-pirate planets, I had nearly 20 in "my" section.  The "chokepoints" were defined by pirate systems; if I could hold A, B, and C, the only other way to get a fleet into my empire would be to go through a pirate planet first; also, C was connected to my empire through B, so if I lost C, I'd only lose one intervening planet before B became the only frontier on that side of my empire.  In each game I had peace with all of the other players (through bribes) long enough to colonize my planets and set up basic defenses.

ATTEMPT #1: The purple player colonized both planet A and one asteroid on my side of A, so I wasn't able to set up my own reinforced starbase chokepoint there, although I was able to build a starbase in his well (while he was an ally).  While my front-line planets had some defenses, none were fully stocked with defenses when the fighting started.  Once peace broke down, Red and Purple overran the A starbase and proceeded to rampage through my empire.  On the other side of the empire, the planet C starbase, heavily upgraded and with a full well of supporting structures, was eventually destroyed when three enemy fleets (Blue, Green, Yellow) hit it at once, and I had to fall back to B.  Things got untenable at about 1h45m; with most of my crustal defenses gone, there was little to stop the enemy fleets from running amok.

ATTEMPT #2: Rewound fifteen minutes and bought MORE starbase techs, made sure to max out the starbase upgrades at the three border planets, and bought more defense structures on my front-line planets.  Again, all of my alliances eventually broke down and I was hit by five fleets at once.  This time, it worked, sort of; the A starbase still died, although it lasted long enough to deal massive damage to the Red and Purple fleets, enough that they couldn't attack the next line of planets well (since I'd now built my defenses a bit more in depth), and a new front line formed once I built a replacement starbase at the next planet.  The C starbase survived, partially because of those additional planet defenses, and partially because this time the Blue player (the weakest opponent, with only five planets) hit B instead of C, and the B starbase handled them easily without any fleet help.

At this point, after two hours of carnage, I rewound back to the 15m autosave.  I would have won in the previous attempt, but it was messy and I wanted to see how much the game could be improved if I hadn't waited until that last minute to buy the defenses and techs needed for my starbases.  Knowing the map, now, gave me a pretty good advantage as well.

ATTEMPT #3: The key difference is that I ran forward and grabbed planet A before the purple player could get it, skipping past a couple asteroids along the way just to make sure I'd get there first.  This made ALL the difference; when things turned inevitably bad with the Red player, his fleet hit a fully-defended planet with a fully-upgraded starbase, instead of a lone base in an ally well.  (Purple never turned on me, because he kept giving me diplomacy missions to destroy Red ships.  Likewise, Blue never turned on me, because he kept asking for resources.) Also, I built the maximum defenses at each front-line planet; C, for instance, was a 40-point well, so now it had, in addition to the starbase: a phase stabilizer, a nano jammer, a PJI, five hangars (6F/4B), and six turrets in a ring around the planet.

I managed to last through nearly the entire game with almost NO fleet.  I had a grand total of eight capital ships and no combat cruisers or frigates ships at all, until I had reached the point where I had every non-fleetsize tech in the tree and had placed fully-upgraded starbases around each ALLY'S planets.  (-19% support instead of -56% means that I had an income of 250+ credits, 25 metal, and almost 20 crystal per tick, which made buying upgrades and such insanely fast.)  Those eight ships were getting insane XP simply by sitting on the far sides of the wells as my starbases ripped apart the enemy fleets, and reached level 10 quickly.  Obviously I could have won much sooner, but I wanted to make sure that the starbase-based defenses really COULD hold up against a late-game AI fleet, and they did.

-------------------------

The point is this: the Vasari starbase, without support and with normal tech progression, will die quickly against a concerted attack.  But I discovered that with a fully-structured defense net around it, and with a player going straight for the new starbase-specific techs (especially the one that adds 10% damage and +1 target per bank, which combined are nearly a 40% increase in damage output), it can handle entire AI fleets on its own, without any help from a mobile fleet, and can even handle multiple fleets with minimal support.  You don't NEED ships healing the starbase, if it's got all four defense upgrades plus a shield.  The only real failing with building all of my starbases 3off/4def/1shield is the lack of fighter cover, but hangars handled that pretty well.  I mean really, with 22k HP and an armor rating of THIRTY, and a deflector shield of course, a fully-upgraded Vasari SB can take a tremendous beating, all the while dealing out an impressive amount of carnage.  (The caveat is that this is against an AI player, who didn't try to stop me from engaging his few torpedo ships.)

Obviously, players don't have the resources to fully upgrade starbases at every attackable planet on a typical map.  So, you'll need mobile fleets in most cases.  But if you've got a map where you KNOW which planet will be attacked, a teched-out starbase and full defenses will slaughter practically anything that an AI can throw at it.  (Seriously, at one point in Attempt #2 I had three starbases holding the line against FIVE Hard AIs for nearly two hours.)

 

Also, I discovered that there's a small bug with the Vasari starbase that micromanagement solves.  No, I don't mean the bank targeting bug we all know and love; it's about the disintegrator beams.  For whatever reason, their range seems to be SLIGHTLY shorter than that of the pulse beams.  This means that a starbase, left to its own devices when attacking a structure (like an enemy starbase) will stop once it enters pulse beam range, just outside of disintegrator range.  And so, it won't use its best anti-structure weapon; in a straight-up fight, no supporting fleets or structures, one of my Vasari SBs was losing badly to an Advent base with only three defense upgrades and only 19 armor.  But if I order the starbase to move closer manually, it'll immediately start firing all weapons again, and the difference in anti-structure damage is tremendous; now, my SB outperformed the Advent base by far.  Against fleets this bug isn't an issue, but when using the base offensively it's a big shift.

Reply #27 Top

A combo of 150 explosive mines + 12 or so fighter squadrons + fully upgraded starbases = gravity well almost impossible to control.

I had 150 mines at the verge of a grav well, where I knew the enemy fleet would arrive, and I placed my starbase at the far end of the mine field, causing all the ships to run into them. With the SC, I target the torpedo cruisers and the starbase take care of the rest. I even used this massacre to lvl 2 cap ships from lvl 1 to 6, I had them waiting behind the starbase.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting Spatzimaus, reply 1

ATTEMPT #3: The key difference is that I ran forward and grabbed planet A before the purple player could get it, skipping past a couple asteroids along the way just to make sure I'd get there first.  This made ALL the difference; when things turned inevitably bad with the Red player, his fleet hit a fully-defended planet with a fully-upgraded starbase, instead of a lone base in an ally well.  (Purple never turned on me, because he kept giving me diplomacy missions to destroy Red ships.  Likewise, Blue never turned on me, because he kept asking for resources.) Also, I built the maximum defenses at each front-line planet; C, for instance, was a 40-point well, so now it had, in addition to the starbase: a phase stabilizer, a nano jammer, a PJI, five hangars (6F/4B), and six turrets in a ring around the planet.

I managed to last through nearly the entire game with almost NO fleet.  I had a grand total of eight capital ships and no combat cruisers or frigates ships at all, until I had reached the point where I had every non-fleetsize tech in the tree and had placed fully-upgraded starbases around each ALLY'S planets.  (-19% support instead of -56% means that I had an income of 250+ credits, 25 metal, and almost 20 crystal per tick, which made buying upgrades and such insanely fast.)  Those eight ships were getting insane XP simply by sitting on the far sides of the wells as my starbases ripped apart the enemy fleets, and reached level 10 quickly.  Obviously I could have won much sooner, but I wanted to make sure that the starbase-based defenses really COULD hold up against a late-game AI fleet, and they did.

-------------------------

The point is this: the Vasari starbase, without support and with normal tech progression, will die quickly against a concerted attack.  But I discovered that with a fully-structured defense net around it, and with a player going straight for the new starbase-specific techs (especially the one that adds 10% damage and +1 target per bank, which combined are nearly a 40% increase in damage output), it can handle entire AI fleets on its own, without any help from a mobile fleet, and can even handle multiple fleets with minimal support.  You don't NEED ships healing the starbase, if it's got all four defense upgrades plus a shield.  The only real failing with building all of my starbases 3off/4def/1shield is the lack of fighter cover, but hangars handled that pretty well.  I mean really, with 22k HP and an armor rating of THIRTY, and a deflector shield of course, a fully-upgraded Vasari SB can take a tremendous beating, all the while dealing out an impressive amount of carnage.  (The caveat is that this is against an AI player, who didn't try to stop me from engaging his few torpedo ships.)

Obviously, players don't have the resources to fully upgrade starbases at every attackable planet on a typical map.  So, you'll need mobile fleets in most cases.  But if you've got a map where you KNOW which planet will be attacked, a teched-out starbase and full defenses will slaughter practically anything that an AI can throw at it.  (Seriously, at one point in Attempt #2 I had three starbases holding the line against FIVE Hard AIs for nearly two hours.)
End of Spatzimaus's quote

This is such a key point for entrenchment that people might not realize...the absolute must strat is to scout the map as quick as you can (1st thing) to find that one major choke point...then send your egg there 1st - skipping all other planets in between (you can backtrack and colonize them later).  Get that choke point and hold it until you can build a SB there...then run your egg back along the line and fill in the other planets.  As soon as you can tech the 1st SB up.

**************IMPORTANT PART******************

You must tech the SB to max on assault (3) and defense (4) and then put your last tech into either shield or debris vortex.  The advantage to shield is that you'll take less damage to your shields through an attack...the advantage to debris vortex is that you have healing powers while you destroy enemy ships.  At full defensive and assault tech (with the level 7 tech of both in Fortifications), you have 23,100 Hull and 10,500 shields (I think) + a full banks of heavy assault.

**********************************************

Now, couple with this in the well, 4-6 hangars, a pji, 1-2 repair platforms, a nano, and as many turrets as you can put up and nothing is going to take that well for at least 2 1/2 - 3 hours of game play.  Then you can start to reinforce this well with some extra ships, if need be.  What this does, is allow you to not worry about upgrading your fleet for quite a long time.  In essence, this keeps your fleet upkeep at 0 and allows the $$$ and resources to come in at a much faster rate that anyone else in the game.  This, in turn, allows you to tech everything up quicker than everyone else.

I did this scenario against 5 UNFAIR AI and cleared the map and defeated all of them in 6 hours of gameplay...they kept coming at that SB and wasting all of their fleets against it.  This, in turn caused them to not tech and research everything as quickly because they had to keep rebuilding their fleets.  By the time that I had my fleet put together and had e-thing fully teched,  I ran through their planets and SB's (only teched to 2-4 levels) with ease and just picked them off one-by-one.

This strat is 125% foolproof and really brings out what "Entrenchment" is supposed to be.

Reply #29 Top

I forget the name of the map, but each empire had about 3 colonizable planets and a few uncolonizable wells inbetween us. it was a 4 player FFA. Everything was connected like a big ring, and a cross going through the star. I got my 3 planets and got enough civ to tech to development mandate, this gave me enough logistics room to get my weapons research started. eventually, long story short. I put 4 starbases at the star and upgrades all four of them with construction to level 2. I then scrapped my frigate factories on the homeworld to free up extra spots for additional weapons labs. This worked pretty well. I attacked from the center and the output from 4 factories producing at 150% is amazing. bundle that with industrial juggernaught and my economy can't keep up with them. I didn't even bother to upgrade their weapons, Just hull integrity and some other various abilities. 

One thing I did note that at a star if you have multiple starbases, only upgrade one of them with docking boom to level 2, because it doesn't stack. the other 3 starbases are better spent on hangers or Big Red Button.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting TheSpydyr, reply 3
they kept coming at that SB and wasting all of their fleets against it.  This, in turn caused them to not tech and research everything as quickly because they had to keep rebuilding their fleets.
End of TheSpydyr's quote

Noes! The secrets! If you post them, IC will make the AI not fall for them anymore! ^_^

Reply #31 Top

Hi,

I love the Sins of a Solar Empire game, its been really good reading the tactics players use.  I really enjoy upgrading the Starbases and I made a little mod which is still in development.  The goal is to increase the maximum upgrade levels so players can build even stronger Starbases.  Check it out here.

http://modsreloaded.com/expanded-starbases