Trade (and other structure) positioning within a gravity well

from Sins Forums

I've been wondering how to position my trade ports within my gravity well.  Does it have any effect on their income?  Initially I had thought that there would be a tradeoff between safety (distance from incoming phase lanes) and income (the speed with which trade ships can leave the system to carry their goods elsewhere).  But the forum posts I have been reading mostly seem to think that income is only a function the number of ports and the length of the longest route.  That seems a little silly to me, but OK.

More generally, what do you do about positioning your structures within a gravity well?  I'm sure some of you have auto-position turned on.  I tried that a little but it did not work well for me.  I could detect no logic to where the computer places structures.

Typically, construction-type structures are more useful near the edge of the gravity well.  This allows constructed ships to quickly move into their first phase jump, saving up to 20s in total delivery time.  But almost all other buildings seem to be more effective close to the planet.  That is, there is no reason to have them near the edge of the gravity well where the enemy can strike at them easily.

As for positioning of weapon structures, I have taken to two main strategies early and late game.

Early: guns go around the planet on the side most exposed to phase lanes.  The computer never attacks from the back so it's fine to concentrate the guns on one side.    After that, attempt to maximize overlap so alt+select+focus fire gets several guns pointing at the same enemy ship.  I have found this technique to be enormously effective in the elimination of enemy light frigates.  I assume any intelligent human would just put his bombardment on the back side of the planet, which means that guns would be even less effective than they already are.

Late: The bread and butter of my defensive forces late game have been hanger defenses.  I will typically build five of those in edge star systems (systems exposed to phase lanes not controlled on both sides by my forces).  I will staff them with 20% fighters and 80% bombers.  Again, alt+sel+focus fire is my friend.  The computer is very illogical and will automatically attack enemy capital ships with my bombers, where I really want them to be focusing on the weakest frigates as soon as the siege frigates have been finished off.  Fighters of course should attack enemy fighters first, but they end up attacking enemy bombers, which means if I don't want my own bombers torn up, I have to micro.

I try to pack the hangar defenses in the tightest space possible as far away from incoming phase lanes as possible, then surround that area with as many guns as I can with the remaining tactical points.  This way my strike craft can ravage attacking fleets as long as possible without me needing to worry about defending the hangers themselves.  Once again, I focus fire with the guns when the enemy attacks my hangers.  I think the strategy would be effective even against humans, because if they want to stop strike craft production they have to come around to the hangers.  If they don't stop my strike craft, they won't have anything left to bomb the planet with.

I typically position all my noncombat structures on the back side of the planet, anticipating that when I get to my late game defensive tactics the guns will also protect them.  I have never seen the computer go after isolated buildings even when they could avoid my guns, so I know that there's no reason to protect them because by the time the computer gets around to attacking them, I am already in serious trouble.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts.  I used Google and this forum's search but didn't find much on this topic (the latter seems broken as neither "tradeport" nor "trade port" came up with any results).  I'm an extreme beginner . . . only been playing about two weeks.  Be gentle.  :)

strategy
8,735 views 16 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Good ideas to me, I generally auto place structures in the late game or in planets that are fairly far behind my front lines.  The only thing to worry about as far as the computer attacking buildings is that some of the pirate ships go specifically for trade ports/trade ships (and refinery ships/buildings) and will bypass everything else.  Since I play Entrenchment only I tend to build a starbase at the front of the planet and put my most vulnerable structures there so they are heavily defended, then I surround my planet with stationary guns and hangar defenses.  One good thing I've noticed, when you auto place stationary guns the computer automatically puts them near structures that need defending, rarely ever are they placed in the middle of nowhere, its a good tactic if youre trying to do a lot of things at once or need to place a bunch quickly to fend off an attack.  The computer player (not pirates) almost always goes for your ships/fleet first (or starbase, if you're playing Entrenchment) and your planet second, only when the planet is destroyed does it go after any structures in the gravity well (if you leave your fleet alone in an enemy gravity well your ships will do this too).  The ball of hangar defences + turrets is a good idea, especially if you're playing as the TEC, since they have the nice little addition of flak turrets to their hangars in Entrenchment :grin: .

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

There is no reason to ever auto-place. I often put them close together to cover them with repair bays.

Also note that your start works for AI, not humans. We go around your guns. So hangers work better.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Trade can be placed anywhere now. Back in beta you usually put them on the edge of gravity well because it made a difference.  However, I like it the way it is now.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

at the risk of saying something that has already been made completely obsolete by Entrenchment...

 

the mainstay of planet defense is done by building two overlapping repair bays and planting a frigate factory in between them. leave some fleet supply open and build ships in response to invaders. you can pick the ideal counter unit based on what is attacking you. once (...if) you succesfully repel the attack you have already built counter-attack forces and can press offense immediately.

 

evaluating enemy forces quickly is key to building your defensive response. if you see long range frigs, try to build some carriers or long range of your own. if you see carriers, build flaks and light frigates. if its a late game fleet with massed carriers, heavy cruisers and support ships you're gonna have to recall your own main fleet to fight it so your solution is to just buy time by building heavy cruisers (which take a long time to kill even if they won't finish off a large number of enemy ships on their own).

 

static defenses are in general not incredibly useful, even against the AI, and especially not against human opponents. the best way to view Turrets is supplementary damage that has a low cost and doesn't take up fleet supply. the best way to view hangar defense is as a counter to enemy bombers (and also siege frigates but nobody uses those).i only ever build fighter squadrons at hangar defense because they are by far the most efficient at removing the units i'm interested in countering with hangar d (sieges, long range frigs, and bomber squadrons, all of which are weak to fighters). i rarely have more than 3 or 4 turrets and 2 or 3 hangars even in fully developed late game grav wells. if i really want to lock down a grav well it will get 3-4 repair bays and 2-3 frigate factories.

 

 

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

static defenses are in general not incredibly useful, even against the AI

End of quote

Well, against the AI they'll run head-first into a line of turrets, which is both hilarious and very cost effective.  Turret it up against the AI, they don't know any better than to run head-first into your deathtrap.  The opposite applies against a player; a good delay mechanism, but a waste of resources otherwise because they won't fight them head to head.  I personally find putting a turret or two next to my repair bays is useful.  They give good hit points for their cost, so they can absorb a lot of punishment before going down, making for a nice delay mechanism and also providing some minimal cover for repair bays against units like light frigates who have disabling abilities.

I personally like hanger defenses.  They can't be avoided, they're not too expensive (but at the same time not spammable), they deal with the passing scouts, and against the AI they pretty much will deal with any number of siege frigates.  Still, they're the kind of thing you spend cash on when you're at fleet capacity, since a carrier cruiser is usually a better investment since it can relocate.

 

 

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I use turrets only when I have no points left for any other tactical structure.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Well, trade ports always in the back for frontline planets, whatever is shortest for a trade lane for the backyards...

Pirates tend to chase after trade ships and just supply free xp for capital ships.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

With entrenchment positioning is now kidna mroe important.  I especially love the shield ugrade from Advent Hangers, even though it gives you no mitigation beyond the flat 15% (upgraded with tech of course).  I also have been using turrets here and there, they can help out. Last game I was holdign 2 players at my planet using my fleet, mothership shield regen, guardians, 2 hanger bays which provided shield for all buidligns, 2 repairs and 2 turrets :)

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

i actually think the Vasari hangar d got the best special ability out of Entrenchment. the shield boost thing from advent is pretty meh and is still no substitute for proper repair bay deployment. i do rather like the Synergy upgrade on Beam Defenses now. in alot of ways i think you get better performance out of 3 or 4 beam turrets than you do from an advent hangar d. 

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

I love the bonus the advent turrets get when built next to each other.  Sometimes if you build them in a good location a player won't be able avoid taking fire from them.   In some cases the bonus can be up to 13%.  they each have around 3500 hull points.  pretty good defense and cheap with very little tactical slots used.  However human players can avoid them all together.  I build everything clumped together.  I couldn't care less if they are pummeling the planet on the other side.  If they want to get rid of those structures the concetrated fire could be problmatic.  specially if they want to lock the planet down for themself.  Which is also wise to clump in near the actually miniral rocks. 

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

But if they claim the planet for themselves, they are likely to just bring a torpedo ship or star fish to wipe out the left over structures.

But I imagine a starbase with Aux government surrounded by 35 tactical points worth of turrets is something to fear. (after the patch that fixes Aux government of course.)

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Bombers - lots of bombers!!!

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Kol, just ONE Kol!

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

My general planetary defence network is three hanger defences at the point furthest from any phase lanes (7 fighters, 2 bombers purely to stop the enemy fighters from taking out my fighters before I can hit the sieges), a PJI right next to the frigate factory (or two), two repair bays around all the key structures and a couple of turrets where the AI normally goes for with the siege frigates. It makes for a good all round defence and I don't have to spend undue amounts of time placing turrets. Haven't got entrenchment so I can't comment on that.

It takes some time to set up but once you have a forward base on a planet near the enemy (or in the neutral star system as the case may be) it makes it nearly unbeatable when facing the AI except from carrier spam or multiple cap ships. Dead asteroids are especially useful for this since they are mostly positioned at choke points so you can easily cover all sides with the turrets.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

As far as trade goes, it was my understanding that the money from trade only came from those tiny trade ships coming and departing from the trade posts themselves. And that if you sank other peoples trade ships, they lost that income and you got a percentage of it.

 

I recently put an vasari starbase into the sun's gravity well, it went to the other side of the sun, where all the trade ships were passing for my enemies, and sat there and ate all the money.... yum... preventing those particular planets from getting any trade income. So Yes, trade is dependent on the length of the longest trade route and the number of the trade ports, but if the ships don't get through, the money doesn't get into your pocket.

 

 

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting markarian, reply 15
As far as trade goes, it was my understanding that the money from trade only came from those tiny trade ships coming and departing from the trade posts themselves. And that if you sank other peoples trade ships, they lost that income and you got a percentage of it.

 

I recently put an vasari starbase into the sun's gravity well, it went to the other side of the sun, where all the trade ships were passing for my enemies, and sat ther and ate all the money.... yum... preventing those particular planets from getting any trade income. So Yes, trade is dependent on the length of the longest trade route and the number of the trade ports, but if the ships don't get through, the money doesn't get into your pocket.

 

 
End of markarian's quote

 

Yea I believe avoiding that is called playing the game.  Trade ports are a huge income gain for me in the late game.  If you sit there eating my trade ships up expect a fleat coming in for a good old practice of raping things. 

 

However to add something to that the trade ships a pretty quick and many times unless a few bombers/fighters chase them down they make it through anyways.  Also the devs thought of this and if you notice this happening they gave the Advent at least the ability to shot down trade and concentrate on mining resource of planet.

 

I have played games that ended quick enough that there was no need for trade ports yet.