Cykur, you have a lot of patience for this discussion and I admire that.
Still, you don't get the point. I will repeat - the defender is not a turtler who begins the game with building defenses. No, by all means.
He starts just as you do, builds a nice fleet, expands expands expands, builds more fleet and expands some more. He clashes with you, wins a fight , loses a fight. Then he takes over a significant strategic point, which is arguably the most important place in the system for you at that moment (for example, it has 4 phase lines to your valuable planets and he has a fleet more or less like yours, preparing to attack them). From this point, he builds a 5/8 orkulus and prepares to attack you.
Add everything I mentioned in previous posts and it all comes down to: you WANT him OUT of that gravwell. Pronto.

And here comes the trouble. TEC builds lotsa ogrovs and just booms the crap out of the orkulus before the fighters start their engines (throw in a Flak Burst or two and no fighters in sight). Advent, more or less the same, plus the Halcryons (?) anti strikecraft repulsion thingy  to get rid of your fighters.
But as a Vasari, you have nothing. No real advantage. Everything you can use, he can use on you, with the only exception that he already has a working, upgraded starbase. Not a zillion SBs everywhere, one well placed, thorn-in-the-ass starbase you really want dead.

Vasari needs something for that matchup that would give the attacker a slightiest advantage, a tiniest weak spot of the defender to exploit without relying on grand strategies that gen. Montgomery wouldn't have figured out himself. TEC has ogrovs, advent has adjudicators.
Vasari have nothing.

 

Oh and for the love of God, I don't want a torpedo cruiser for Vasari. The uniquity of Vasari the way they are now is not something I want out!
All that needs to be tweaked is the Vasari vs Vasari matchup. It will be tricky to do, but I suppose it's not impossible.

For example:
Protective Nanites - research, tech level 3-4 in fortification tree.
"Jarun Migrator is equipped with a payload of special nanites that shield an Orkulus while it is being deployed in fortified enemy systems"
Duration: Construction period and 120 seconds afterwards if being deployed while an enemy Starbase is present.
Effects:
- max Shield Mitigation increased by 5%
- Shield regeneration 10 sp/sec
- Enemy Structure damage -50% (game mechanic wise; that would result in 33% actual damage reduction against enemy structures)
My reasoning - such an upgrade would be of little use against TEC or Advent, because the shield mitigation bonus and regeneration are minor, plus you are going to deploy your orkulus out of their SB's reach anyway. The damage reduction would help the starbase survive against a defender's starbase early, but seriously, without at least level 2 attack and level 1 defense, an orkulus cannot scratch a half-developed argonev (try for yourselves, a lvl6 Vulkoras does better!). So this damage reduction would actually be effective only against Vasari, because wherever you start building your Assaulting Orkulus, the defending one is gonna pound on it.

This is just an IDEA of the type of tweak I'd like to see. Something that doesn't say "Boosts orkulus offensive capability against another vasari" (cause that would be retarded in a number of ways), but something that would sound sensible in general, yet truly shine against a defending orkulus in particular.

Um no offense but this is a classic military situtiation. Against two equally prepared armies the aggessor always needs three times the force as the defender. What you are gripping about is something that armies have had to deal with for millennium. So grip away, but if things are balanced like you keep projecting this will happen.

Hate to repeat myself and I hate even more when people quote me out of context.
Tec and Advent only need a starbase-worth of torpedo cruisers to blast it out of the gravwell (against a decently upgraded 5/8 orkulus starbase, that would be equal to 18 ! ogrovs, which is well enough to three-shot that starbase).

The Vasari vs Vasari fight is the ONLY one that really requires the attacker to invest more that the defender and that is because they both have exactly the same tricks available and they will all work for both of them, while the defender has the advantage of a deployed and upgraded starbase.
THAT is wrong. I wouldn't mind if EVERY matchup required triple the effort on the attacker's side, but they DO NOT.

Problem here is that bypassing the chokepoint takes 5 times the money and 10 times the risk the other factions have to invest in a direct assault.
You have to send your troops there, ensure the capability to send reinforcements and somehow cope with the fact that you're in the middle of enemy territory (so they have dozens of factories around and most likely an established phase stabilizer network).
All of that takes wits and lots of credits, while TEC and Advent just build two dozen torpedo cruisers and bam through the door. Moreover, they can use their torpedo fleet in the next gravwell 15 seconds later, while the Vasari have to build yet another starbase.

 

Agreed...with proper support, all of the races are pretty damn hard to assault.  And Advent REALLY sting.  Hooray for Kosturas!

Orkulus out of reach -> frontal shield deflectors -> stinging turns into tickling.

Well, every Vasari should have Phase stabilizers sooner or later (I'm talking level 5 imperial tree tech, not a 8-war+5-imperial Kostura!). Once you get these, you can essentially crank units out of every single factory in your empire and have them wherever you need them in seconds.
Moreover, thanks to the same phase stabilizer network, you can in fact move every single unit you empire has into that single battlefield. TEC can't do that, because they would have to fly back for half an hour.

I would never risk a single ship if I had to fight an unupgraded starbase. Orkulus->1offense->1defense->frontal deflectors , gbye.

Wrong again. Vasari don't steamroll sh*t, in fact, if we're talking starbase liquidation. Deploying an Orkulus that can handle a developed starbase takes AGES, and it takes EONS until either of the two actually kills the other. 5 Ogrovs deal more damage to starbases than a fully developed Orkulus can - and you can have three dozens of Ogrovs while there may be only one Orkulus. MOREOVER, three dozen ogrovs can phase jump to another gravwell and immediately start evaporating whatever your enemy has there, while a Vasari player would have to build yet another starbase, which will take a lot of time again.
So no, Vasari don't steamroll, but they have a more or less safe tactic against both Tec and Advent. Just build up away from their starbase, then kill it when you're ready. And that one safe thing they can NOT do against another Vasari. What makes matters worse, the fact that enemy is Vasari doesn't give you any new options.

Assaulting Vasari as Vasari is simply harder, more difficult and more expensive than in any other matchup.
And that is called imbalance.

1. pretty sure orkulus doesn't outrange transcencia. and i was talking more about the difficulty of taking on fortified advent/TEC planets in general rather than orky vs. other SBs. every SB can be a pain in the ass if the player knows how to use it. it's just that everyone is massively in love with vasari and few take time to explore other opportunities.

2. if the vasari are amassing phase stabilizers they are suffering on tactical slots. just make sure & fortify. and stop thinking exclusively in terms of vasari although *if you were*, remember that the overseer has a nifty ability that slows everyone down. did you bring your starbase builder with you?

The vasari SB thing also makes it a lot easier to lock down your new conquests...you've already invested in an Sb to protect the grav well, so you don't have to worry about a colony ship running in behind. can you say the same for rushing 3 dozen ogrov's around?

and...stop complaining. every race sucks at something. this just happens to be what vasari suck at. tough. everyone seems to want vasari to be uber unstoppable godly at everything.

Whoever did imply that it does?? Vasari build their starbase out of Transcencia's reach, prepare it and then FLY IT INTO THE FIGHT. If the Orkulus has frontal deflectors up, it has a great advantage. There's no imbalance here because the defending Advent player has five minutes to bring/build a flet for defense, before Orkulus is ready.

Whatever is your point here, eh?

What are you talking about? I want to attack this kid, not fortify against him.

Again.. what? I am thinking exclusively about Vasari because it is Vasari vs. Vasari that is screwed, all other matchups are fine.
And Overseer's slowdown is useless in general. The enemy will be in phase space for 30 seconds instead of 15. AWESOME ;O. Plus, you will actually have to research that slowdown crap (lvl 6? 7? tech) along with its prerequisite (mobile phase detection = utterly useless, since everyone should have phase detection research done sooner or later from imperial phase mastery tree).
What closes the case of overseer's slowdown is: He's jumping all his stuff together. It doesn't matter if they fly 8 or 16 seconds. They all arrive together anyway.

This is an obvious tradeoff I am not talking about over here. We're talking about Vasari vs Vasari! Read the THREAD NAME!
It's true that Orkulus, being mobile, locks down the gravwell.
IF you conquer that gravwell, you will have it locked down. That is an awesome perspective, but notice that it is the defending Vasari who already has an Orkulus there and has that gravwell locked down.
Also, if you bring Ogrovs to the scene and he starts building a starbase again, he's throwing another ton of money on it, which you can counter with what you already have constructed. ALSO, a newly built starbase takes half a minute to kill a light frigate while ten ogrovs two-shot such a starbase.

So, I'm repeating myself yet again. Every other matchup is somewhat fine. It's not all mirror-matches, sometimes one side has an advantage over the other while lacking somewhere else. For instance, the Vasari are painfully slow in conquering because they have to build a starbase in every system (which is more or less as strong as the defending one = upgrades = time and money), while Ogrovs just phase jump around at will. In return, Vasari are able to have that gravwell secured immediately, because they already have a starbase there.
All is fine and sh*t, but NOT when we're talking Vasari vs Vasari.
You are trading "slow conquest" for being able to "keep control" over the gravwell. But in Vas vs Vas matchup, you won't be able to conquer, because the defender floats his own "control keeper" right up your ass while you are "slowly" building your own starbase.

Every race sucks at something but they bring something else to even the odds. Vasari can phase jump everywhere they want while the TEC just build a new fleet where they need it. Difference, but balance altogether. Every other match has such differences which come down to an even play.

But in this one fight all advantages are on the defender's side.

If he is an idiot and just fortifies everywhere, he will die, cause he has no planets, no money, no fleet. The same with all races.
But if he is a bloke just as clever as you are, who found a perfect choke against you and exploited it, you're fouled. If he was TEC, you would have options. If he was Advent, just as well. But since he's Vasari just like you, all the strengths are on his side while all your weaknesses are left to you.

No I don't. All I want is an even game. No other matchup has anything like that. This is the only screwed one. I'm pointing it out and suggesting that it gets balanced.

Did you even try to figure out the numbers of bombers you need to eventually down that 'orky' and just how easy they are to eliminate? Ogrov is cheaper than Vasari carrier, yet you'd need twice as many carriers than a TEC would need Ogrovs to kill the starbase. NOT a good counter.
Yes, they are inevitably taking damage, but at least they shoot back with all their guns at the same time. A vasari player who would want to use his own orky needs to deploy and upgrade it before it can do any damage to the defending starbase. And, as I said, a ton of ogrovs and you're set (~15 with a little support can down an orkulus fast). You can't field a ton of orkys.
a] Vasari are no more mobile than any other race in the gravwell scale, excluding a flying starbase (which doesn't really help the attacker in this matchup). Or unless you have a Marauder which everybody knows isn't worth having in a competitive game (Egg, Vulkoras or even Kortul are much more useful except for a handful of situations that might never occur)
b] turn around and eat his fleet. Of course. Why didn't I think of that. Of COURSE the enemy will NEVER expect me to turn around and will be SO SHOCKED that I actually open fire that he will turn off autoattack on all his forces and maybe cover himself in ketchup so his fleet becomes more edible.
You either have something serious to say or you don't.
Again - at least they are dealing serious damage to the orkulus. Yes they are under fire, but bring enough and the starbase goes down real fast. They are an immediate and serious threat to that starbase, a threat that you can spam (something "good" online players excel at). Vasari have nothing of that sort.

Actually I find bombers are the perfect counter for the orky. And yes I tried this against a human Vasari as Vasari.

Are they more expensive than the anti-structures? Yes because they do more than attack structures therefore they cost more.

thats not a bug, its there to inform you that there is a starbase in the gravity well and that you will pay the price if you want to leave without destroying it first. Its only a reminder of what could happen, nothing more.

But they work. Sometimes the simplest things work better than complex schemes. Take the story of Alexander the Great and the Gordian knot. His solution was a simple and "mentally-cheap" tactic but it worked. Not all problems need a special solution. All races do not need an anti-structure vessel. Bombers fill this role quite well. And when you examine the Advent starfish, they do squat to any SB, unless you spam them.

The only race with an effective anti-SB vessel that you don't have to spam much is TEC. Even then a spam of fighters can take them apart so you need to spam those vessels to cover the loses.

What if Vas could build a starbase in an adjacent system prepped for a one time warp? It could cost more for the massive phase engines and they would be burnt out after a single use... Or maybe you could add phase engines to any Vas starbase for a great cost... It's a thought that would definitely require some balancing... But it would make sense with Vasari ideology...

they could do a system where...
1. you can move an SB to another system using phase technology. However,
2. It takes a while to do and the orky is actually visible ( and vulnerable) on both ends.
3. it costs some money to use the ability and cost ( and time) are proportionall to upgrades(not necesarily linear scaling though. i'm thinking maybe 2 minutes or so scaling up to 3 or 4. takes a while but the Sb can still survive.
4. One of the conditions of the ability is that you CANNOT have another Sb in that sytem, AND that any Sb already using that ability to that sytem is considered as "being there"

5. Must have Line of sight to the system.

6. add a researchable ability to the stationary SB's that inhibits this kind of jump in. stationary SB's have a lot more power to commit to inhibiting phase space, as opposed to orky's massive engine requirements.

there. now you can prevent massive phasing abusage.

why don't you just ask another vasari player how they do it? i never hear anyone else have an issue with this.