To Start:

I'm not a believer in God, or in any entity of the sort, however, I do believe in Fate, or Destiny, to a degree.

Now:

I refer to "Destiny" as two seperate things:

The first being events that you cannot, under any circumstances, control and were predetermined about you. (ex: Genetic Code, ambition, wealth, etc.)

The second being a sudden, inexplicable occurance or happening, that nudges you in a certain direction forward.

Anyway, I do not think it is fair for a child to have to die because it's parents were idiots and contracted an STI that killed the child, but yet so far whenever I talk about incurable diseases the BOTH of you only bother to mention diseases that the user contracted via bad habits or activities, such as lung or skin cancer for smokers, and STI's for sexually overactive people.  As of yet; we havn't talked about a myriad of other diseases, such as Ebola, that strike at random and for no particular reason. 

Let us take note, for example, of some odd technological advances made over time.  The steam engine is a good example, because when it was invented, it wasn't just one man who said "Aha! An engine that uses the power of water expanding into gaseous form!" No, rather it was numerous scientists, worldwide who strived to make this invention, yet nobody can explain why they all did it around the same time, or how such different people of different cultures managed to create the same basic product, especially since communication back then was rather difficult across large spans of the planet.  A modern example of this would be jet engines.  These men did it because it was their Destiny to create something like that.

Getting back to my earlier example: alright, let's say a child is born with a deformation in it's legs that gives it difficulty walking. It struggles with walking until the age of.... 7.  Then one day it's hit by a car, and looses control of it's legs again. After extensive surgery, it can walk again.  However, it then breaks a leg and so on and so forth for the rest of it's life. One could argue that it has a fate to never walk, and another could argue that it's just coincidence.

Free Will, you say? IMO: Free will is the ability to think an act, with no interference or influence from outside forces, past experiences, and superstition about the consequences of your actions. 

I will, however, agree that Destiny and God are both things that mankind has created to comfort itself when it failed to answer the question "why".  However, I also think that Destiny can fairly be used to answer questions about the human mind and psychology itself, and explain things about people that are otherwise inexplicable.

Furthermore: using the same logic you two have, one could argue that love itself does not exist, rather it is just an intense feeling of attraction caused by hormones, since we have surpassed the point of instinct to mate.  Love for an object, such as a country or game, is just an overly developed pride or attachment.

Richter {^}

Ebola is not random. It's contracted through exchange of bodily fluid. Where it appears is not random, rather it is due to mammalian positions which we are not equipped to track. I will not argue that there are things you can not help, but to say that they are predetermined means there is something making such determinations. This is either conscious or not. If it is not conscious (such as a God), then proving it is predetermined, versus chance, is indeed a difficult thing.

All occurrences are explainable, even if outside the scope of human thought. That is true even in the case of God. To say true chaos exists is to say that no rules should ever apply, and thus without any certainty, we are left in the most real fear. Imagine gravity suddenly disappearing.

The steam engine was first designed by the Greeks and made by the Romans. It was discarded as a toy. Like many other inventions, it was influenced by the discovery of physical principles, which, with the invention of movable type, actually moved about the globe at a much shorter pace than you might imagine. Jet engines are not modern at all. The first existed a year after Jesus died, and the physical principles were understood since the first firework made centuries before.

I would not say that the poor child (gimp leg) was not destined to walk, but that it had a biologically bad occurrence followed by a dick head of a driver and then again a biological occurrence. The problem with the child accepting any suggestion of destiny at 7 is that he never bothers to learn to walk. He has no idea how life will turn out and to surrender oneself to the elements without trying is a life not worth living, IMHO.

Free will is making a choice. There are always outside forces. Your choices are outside forces to someone else. Past experience shapes who we are and the choices we make. To say we can make any choice without it is to say free will is the exclusive domain of an embryo. Superstition is, much like ambition and various other things, a choice. You may be naturally inclined one way or another, but you are still in control of yourself. There are many would-be pedophiles who have the urge to engage in such activity, but have managed to cope for the benefit of society. I applaud their willingness and ability to defy their feelings.

Actually, you just proved that love does exist. To say that love is something mysterious and otherworldly is perhaps making more of it than it needs to be. Love is a feeling of attraction, not necessarily due to hormones alone, which grows into a choice to stand beside the other person, living two lives as one and taking the other persons joys and sufferings as your own. Even if such a thing exists purely within the soft matter of a persons mind, how does this make it any less real or great? Love in other senses is equally valid, but stemming from other origins, yes.

My original point was not to say you are right or wrong. In fact, it was not to convince you of one thing or another. I merely wanted to suggest that rather than saying something is this or that, that you lay down a few possibilities with an open ending which allows you to keep your mind open to a myriad of possibilities. You could respond by saying that you are open, but you chose to keep the comment brief and simply did not bother with any open ended comment, but I would suggest that your use of language demonstrates your mental presence.

banned for not banning

banned for boring everyone

What I got out of this was:

"let's agree to mutually disagree"

and

HAHAHA, I steelz ur ban, noob.

Banned for I'm tired.

Richter {^}

banned

Banned for typing like a politician

banned for not typing like a politician

Banned for things.

banned for all things

Banned for having an educated discussion without offering me to join.

1. These events that you have no control over them, were caused by something, and not just because it was "Destiny". Everything has a cause and an effect. Action and Reaction.

Genetic Code, usually inherited from the person's parents or older ancestors, can have a large impact on someone's behavior, appearance, and character. It depends mostly on your ancestors where you inherited these Genes from, but some of our Genetic Code is formed "along the way", when you grow up. Meaning that the influences in your childhood, can form and build your character, making you different from your parents and distinguishing you as a person. Again, there are reasons, causes for your Genetic Code.

Ambition is something irrelevant. I can mention fear, kindness, love or whatever else. Why did you mention a feeling on this discussion? Are you trying to say that people's feelings are Destiny too?

Wealth? Do I need to say how a child is born wealthy? Really? You dont know?

2. I am not sure what you mean in the "second" one, but my first argument applies here too. Everything has a cause and an effect. Just because you cant see the factors that caused something in your life, doesnt mean its Destiny or something.

A (+B+C...) caused D to occur.

It could be 1 or many more factors that caused an occurrence, but something caused it for sure. It wasnt planned to happen by a greater power, or was inescapable.

The most logical explanations are usually the correct ones. And the logical explanation is what I said earlier. Now, if you read my previous posts, I already said that:

"God, Destiny, Demons and Angels, Fate. All these things were created by people in order to explain things they are unaware of. Factors you cant see, and effects that you had no control of the cause, this is enough to make you believe it was supposed to happen for some reason, that it was Destiny, or God."

"When people dont understand/cant explain something, they say "God did it". Or when they have no control over something, they say "It was destiny". These 2 show a lot of ignorance imo, because there are so many things that  people are unaware of (me included of course), that you cant possibly understand and know everything. But believing that God actually has a big effect on your life and every day things, or that everything is predetermined, set, fixed or something, be it Destiny or Fate (however you wanna call it), thats just plain stupid."

When you cant explain why something happened, you are going to call "Destiny". Thats fine. Choosing to be ignorant about something is your choice. You can find out why some things happened, OR you can call it "Destiny", and move on with your life.

Let me ask you a question:

Lets say, hypothetically, that it is your Destiny to live a life of loneliness, misery, rejection and generally sadness. Now, if it is like you say, then you cannot change that, no matter what. You WILL live miserably, and die alone after many many years. It is your Destiny.

If you decide at a young age to commit suicide, and succeed in doing that, wont you have changed your supposed Destiny? Were does your philosophy fit into that?

Of course that was just an example, over a common belief in Destiny. Usually people refer to Destiny about their whole life, whether to live happy or miserably, and they think they cant change that. Pfft, how LAME

There are so many things you and all of us dont understand, so many things we are unaware of, if you wanna call Destiny on everything you THINK you have no control of, thats fine.

And of course you dont have control over everything. IF you could control everything in your life, then you would be God, or a superior being of some sort.

1. Fair? Where does fairness fit into that? Do you think life is fair? Of course not.

2. There are so many people doing so many bad, unfair things in the world, that life is completely full of Unfairness.

3. I think you mean STD here, but STI is correct too.

4. Anyway, yes the child will die because its parents were idiots, how is that its destiny? You already mentioned the reason behind it. Someone did a mistake, and a bad thing happened. The child paid for that.

5. Oh you mean all these diseases that doctors have no clue of! Rrrright.... Because we dont know Sh!t about them, they strike totally randomly, and for no reason at all, inexplicably

You are funny Xer07. There are so many things we, as a species are unaware of, that makes us look completely dump, stupid.

But thats fine, we do what we can. The more time goes by, the more we learn, we are able to find out more about our Universe, about Science, treat "incurable" diseases, advance technologically, improve our society (I want to believe that we are improving our society and our way of life but.....meh ), reveal more about our history, discover and invent new things, etc.

Yeah, because scientists actually work together, in groups, and these many groups usually communicate with each other, in order to "borrow" knowledge and advance with their inventions, it is their fate/destiny. Come on Xer07, you are being ridiculous here.

And there are many inventions that were actually made from just 1 person. 1 person discovered electricity, 1 person invented the telephone, 1 person the light bulbs, etc.

The fact that they all do it at the same time, trying to invent/discover the same things, is because 1 rumor can create that:

A rumor spreads that someone in, lets say Germany, has invented a light bulb (in the past of course), that can create light without the use of fire, but using the recently discovered electricity.

Now, since that isnt confirmed, because it all starts as a rumor, nobody made the invention yet, many people, scientists/inventors/mechanics, try to do that, in order to come out first and say they did it. Competing with each other for "glory", or better say, to write their names in history forever.

Scientists of every sort, have always been competing with each other, just like every other human being.

Feel free to call that Destiny too, I dont care.

Yes, I call it coincidence, or rather "a series of unfortunate events". There could be many different reasons and mishaps why some things happen, being unaware of them doesnt mean that it is "Destiny".

For all I know about your example here, that child had extreme trouble walking from birth. The fact that it got control of its legs and walked, then lost that, then got it again, so on and so forth, doesnt mean squat to me.

Just because it has a dramatic sense of irony, doesnt make it Destiny. Life is full of crap like that. Get used to it.

Ok, and? Whats your point?

Oh you have some common sense and logic, good for you!

But only SOME common sense, because you FAIL to understand that:

There are NO inexplicable things in the Universe. We, as a species, just cant explain some things. Everything has an explanation, a meaning, a reason, a cause and an effect.

You should be able to understand that for yourself.

Let me ask you a question:

How was the Universe created?

And dont give me that Big Bang sort of crap. Ok, WE assume that thats how everything was created. Assume that the Big Bang theory is correct. But how did the smallest bit, the tiniest molecule was created in order to cause the Big Bang?

How? Did it create itself? Of course not. (Did God create it? Maybe, but what is God? Where is he?)

The Universal, honest answer is, "We dont know."

There isnt a single, decent, satisfactory explanation to this question.

My whole point being, we dont know nearly anything for our Universe. We can even answer that simple question. Yes, we know a lot, but comparing to what there is out there, we dont know anything at all.

Aaah Love. It all comes down to that, doesnt it Xer07?

Lets see:

I believe that Love does exist, of course, but whether it is a feeling or something "spiritual", I cannot say. However, I will say that this is an entirely different subject, and to keep it short, and avoid an incredibly huge post, (It would be a record of my many huge posts. you know, you have read many of them Xer07 ), I will only say this:

Love definitely stimulates your brain, and produces certain reactions, that create a really strong feeling, making you neglect logic, disregard reason and common sense, and make decisions you would otherwise not make, or make a choice entirely different of what you would have made if you werent "In Love".

My point being, that it is at least something physical, something real, a feeling just as every other feeling, if not for something bigger, something spiritual.

/end of huge post.

That would be all. |  Huge posts FTW!!!

Banned, again, for having an educated discussion without offering me to join.

@Draak:

Whoa, really WOW

My post looks like a child trying to speak after reading your post.

Well done sir   And....

Banned for you can join, of course.

Uhmm....FAIL

That would be all.

burp

Banned for burping. Where are your manners?

That would be all.

Banned for demanding manners.

Banned for  neglecting manners.

That would be all.

Banned for banning neglect.

Banned for being a ScoutCat.

That would be all.

Nature has doomed humanity and, likely, itself through the abandonment of controlled development of the human mind. We know of nothing else so versatile, and only humanity's creations can think faster. The degree of freedom that the human mind has obtained is great indeed, and those wishing to silence competition, satisfy greed, and proect the people from themselves have done so through things like "divine will" and "afterlife". How do you get a bunch of villagers to start up agtriculture? You convince them that the sun will not rise the next day unless food (or whatever is most productive) is "offered".A common belief of impending doom has proven to unite people throughout the ages, and grant scavengers and leaders incredible power and influence. People of kindness use religion to keep peace and bring its benefits to followers. People of lust and greed use the same thing to ontain what they want. And most people follow, for whatever benefit they believe may be gained. Thus, religion is whatever one wants it to be. If that may be a scapegoat or efigee, so be it. But when two religions meet, "who is right" must be answered. Both certainly can't because that would contradict the very founding of the religions. And thus we have conflict. And because religion has been instilled in humanity for thousands of years now, it cannot be removed without even more conflict, which would now lead to the point of extinction by subsequent dissent and individualism. So what does this all mean? You decide: either there is nothing that religions claim to exist that really do, or that whatever entity you believe in has doomed all of you to die, and has you on a stranglehold. How ironic and fitting that humanity must forget in order to learn.

Banned, Damnit!

Banned for ripping off darth maul.

Very interesting things, IFear

It is true that religion exists in order to control and manipulate the masses, to give false hope, to ease a part of people's suffering, and of course, to discriminate people.

I want to stay on something in particular that you said:

Yes, either they are all wrong, and there isnt any God(s) or any other form of Divinity, OR there is some Entity that is toying with all of us, dooming us all to suffer while we live, and die inevitably one day.

1 thing is for sure: Religion institutions dont help mankind at all. It is just another way to cause conflict, and thus making people suffer even more, because we all know what discrimination can do to people's mind. Let me remind you that the biggest racist that has existed was Adolf Hitler, who massacred thousands of Jews just because they were Jews.

Fanatical Racism is being fed by religion, creating conflict, and causing a lot more harm than it does good to the world.

And dont let me get started on the FILTH, all the corruption that exists in all of these Religion institutions.

I am not against Religion as a belief or concept, I am against the Institutions behind them, be it either the Catholic Church, or any other Church, or this or that.

If you are born a Christian Orthodox, you will likely (99%) be C.O. for your whole life. In Greece we are being baptized at the age of 2, as Greek-Christian Orthodox, and can do nothing about it. Our parents choose that for their kids.

We are being taught by our Church, the following, over and over again, we all learn this:

"Πίστευε και μη ερώτα." - Which means: "Believe but do not question."

I have heard this phrase in my life more times than I can count, and when I was a kid, I followed that rule, never questioning anything regarding my religion, my faith. Pfft....poor me Anyway, now I know better.

1 more thing, than even the Catholic Church (not just ours) teaches:

"God works in mysterious ways", Yeah right.....God makes you suffer, but for a good reason....He is "testing you"

How ignorant and lame.

And thats nothing. Dont even let me get started on what happens in other Religions. But I mentioned only mine, in order to not offend anyone here.

But you see how clearly manipulating religion can be.

Only when no religion institutions in the world exist, only then we would have the freedom to believe what we want for ourselves, and not get brainwashed at the youngest age. Because we are getting brainwashed, and not just from our parents, who want to teach us what they think is right and real.

Our education is 1 of the most corrupt, 1 of the most manipulated, guided, controlled institutions in the world. I think its a tough call on what is worse of the 2:

1. The Religion Institutions, or

2. The Educational System

that we have? Hmm.... Tough call....

But I am gonna stop here, because if I were to continue, I would have to mention the monetary system, and....much more.

So....yeah.

1 last thing: Everyone should have an open mind, try to stay uninfluenced from all these things, analyze and think things for themselves, question everything, and form his/her own opinion about everything in the world, including religion.

That would be all.

Banned because my father successfully split away from the Greek Orthodox Church when he was 16, and became an atheist.

Banned because like I said, I am not against Religion, I am against the Institutions behind them, dont get me wrong here.

I am not encouraging anyone to become an atheist. Just to question and analyze everything around them, keep and open mind.

That would be all.