Nerf the damn marza » Forum Post by Agent of Kharma

Dolynick: 2) Cap the total number of targets that it can hit per volley. (12, 18, 24, whatever).

I wasn't saying that it has levels. I am aware that it doesn't. I was saying that the target cap limit could be any of those values or even higher. Whatever is deemed to be acceptable.

4) Cleansing Brilliance. Does 250 "shared" damage per second for 8 seconds to as many ships as fit into a 8000m x 1000m radius column. This is the ability that most closely resembles Missile Barrage but does a maximum of 2000 damage to a target and the column radius largely limits it's total damage potential. Can be interrupted.

I think you missed the entire point. I was listing other abilities to show how they are either 1) Only truely dangerous if they have other things or fleet to capitalize on the effect or 2) Typically have an effective limit on their damage effect to keep them more or less in check.

Lol 8 seconds cannot be inturepted untilt he deed is done. And if you combine it with Malice it wipes out small ships like barage. Then just rince and reapeat.

That just pretty much supports my points.

-Interruption isn't necessarily a good way to keep an ability in check for balance.

-Malice/Cleansing Brilliance are/were only truely powerful (or overpowered) when combined. Missilie Barrage on the other hand requires nothing extra to be that devastating.

SorcererFailure:not even flak / hoshi combo spamming repair can survive mb

Lol garda's can survive it just buy a few upgrades in hull and armor. The teir 1 should be sufficient. Hoshikos will died unlest you give them tier 4 4 upgrades if i remember right.

Normaly only ships that die to marza barage evry single time are. LF, LRFs (exculding illums), Colonies, Seige, Scouts.

Ship that will survive if you upgrade them are: Illums, tier 1 support cruisers, flak

Ships that will survive without upgrades: HCs, Carriers, teir 2 support cruisers, Caps.

Whether or not any given ship survives or not is sort of irrelevant. Missile Barrage, all by itself, still did 3000 x however many ships it hit in damage. What's left is most likely severely damaged and still has to content with the Marza itself and whatever happened to be with it. Unless you have a Missile Barrage of your own, there isn't anything else in the game that can so easily answer and return that kind of damage in kind to keep the fight even.

Yes repair and shield regeneration might be able to keep you in the fight or even undo the damage Missile Barrage just did (most likely to your entire fleet) but that means that you would have to have put that much (more) of your disposable income into repair ships rather than damage dealing ships while the TEC Marza user didn't. That gives him an advantage as well.

-dolynick

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eadtaes,

would you kindly re-read some of the posts you are trying to criticize, and think about what has been said for a little while longer.

also, beginning a sentence with LOL does not do much to make your argument more convincing. in fact, it has rather the opposite effect.

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Also I woudl point out that the Marza doesn't deal 3000 dmg flat. The damage is mitigated. And it doesnt take long to mitigation to reach high lvls.

So some math 3000 / 100 x 57 = 1710 (basic rule of 3)

But you dont get 57% you still take a few wave a lower mitgating. So damage recived is more like 2000 max.

Now if for your illuminator you buy the 2 teir of sheilds you get +20 sheild hp and regen. Also if you get the teir 1 hull upgrade you get 10% more hull hp and regen.

you get 682 sheilds and 660 hull. factor in 2 armor add 10% hull hp you get 726 effective hull.

Now add 682 + 726 = 1408

Now substract damage dealt to damage yoru can absorb.

2000 - 1408 = 592 dmg left to tank.

Now if he has a lvl 6 marza you should at least ahve lvl 5 Progenitor. And if you have lvl 3 sheild regeneration you regenerate 62.5 sheild hp for 8 seconds. So multiply

62.5 x 8 = 500

so

592 - 500 = 92 left to tank.

But wait what if we add in gardians. The reduce damage taken by ships by 33%

So

2000 / 100 x 33 = 660

2000 - 660 = 1340 damage that teh marza will now do to you ships. So lets recalculate

Our lumms have 1408 effective HP the can survie the barage OMG you jus tanked MB.

However
1408 - 1340 = 68 not you in a very good postion.

nor add ina regeneration from you progenitor.

68 + 500 = 568 Your not that bad off. Especialy if you ballenced you fleet better then he did. And you can counter MB like that. Easy and simple. Just upgrade yoru fleet and build you surpport cruisers. Support crusers are the key to any sure victory.

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i don't understand why any of that is relevant. all damage is subject to mitigation. once again, it bears repeating, just because you can with substantial effort manage to survive a Missile Barrage has nothing to do with whether or not the power level of the ability is in line with everything else in the game.

i feel sometimes like the defenders of Missile Barrage are stuck in knee jerk reaction mode and aren't reading or thinking about the arguments made by the other side. i've yet to see a defense of Missile Barrage that explains in any comprehensible fashion why Missile Barrage is at a power level that is in line with the rest of the game. I think its obvious that its out of line, even to its proponents.

so ask yourselves this: if it is obviously out of line, why am I defending it?

thats not a rhetorical question. i want someone to answer it. why is it ok, in your opinion, for one particular ability to be way out of line? that is the opinion the proponents have after all and every defense related to "you can counter it" or "you can survive it" has as its premise that it is acceptable for an out-of-line ability to exist in the game. why is this?

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Dolynick has made the best point here. The fact is mazra has no limitation on its power compared to other abilities.

As for the fact it is a lvl 6 uber ability. Compared to other ships lvl 6 abilities it is still much more powerful. MB is absolutely devostating early to mid game before support cruisers and more caps come online (this is the problem Kharma was pointing out). The level of micro required to counter/avoid MB makes it difficult avoid major damage. You also have to account for the fact it is much easier to micro a single mazra to deal optimum damage than micro a fleet.

EadTaes pointed out avoiding MB is as easy as moving your fleet out of range, and all you have to do to balance it is make MB more visable. But the fact is inorder to avoid major damage you would need to react as soon as it happens. Select your entire fleet and wait for them to turn around and accelerate away from the mazra (the mazra would most likely be in the middle of the enemy fleet when it uses its ability so some ships would need to move through the entire attack radius). By time your fleet is "safe" it has already taken major damage.

Now keep in mind : THERE IS STILL AN ENEMY FLEET!!! So you may have saved your fleet from destruction but they are damaged to the point where the enemy fleet can chew them up easily. So you can retreat, BUT the enemy will follow and you will sustain heavy losses by the time you jump. THEN your enemy may choose to follow your crippled fleet (dealing damage to your economy on they way) if your not jumping into a friendly fortified possition.

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Dolynick has made the best point here. The fact is mazra has no limitation on its power compared to other abilities.

Actually, it should be "no effective limitation that successfully keeps it in check". It has one but it doesn't limit nearly as much as any ability that remotely matches it's potential. But thanks

It would be easily brought into some sort of semblance of balance by either outright limiting it's targets or changing the area of effect in a way that makes it much harder to slam the entire (or majority) of the enemy fleet with it.

Personally, I would probably change it to a column area of effect but give it a much wider radius than Cleansing Brilliance, like say 3000m or 4000m radius and probably have a relatively high target cap on it as well such as 32 or 48 max targets. That would make it so that you have to maneuvre the Marza for optimal firing or at least have face the right direction and still leave it capable of wiping out or severely battering a sizeable portion of the enemy fleet.

-dolynick

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Generally speaking, I figure it's rare that you mange to hit more than 20 - 30 ships at best with it in a single blast for a total damage of 40,000 - 60,000.

Generally speaking, it's rare for cleansing brilliance to hit more than FIVE ships unless you really get lucky.

I don't understand the counterarguments that "Oh, but the ships CAN survive a missile barrage attack". So what? Does a Marza REALLY travel alone, especially one that hits level 6? Of course not. It has a fleet, probably about the same size as yours when you fight it. If your ships are all at critical health, and his ships aren't, you're going to lose. If your ships are REALLY low, they'll die before they can even leave the system. That means you're toast.

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Wait you had a lot of illuminators, but you failed to kill marza? I see no problem here.

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I don't really see the difference between Marza massacring an unwatched fleet, and Egg or Rev massacring an unwatched planet. All situational weapons that can do extreme damage under the right circumstances. If anything caps should be stronger and with better abilities, so leveled caps are meaningful compared to frig spam.

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an easy way to make MB more resonable -

half/quarter the number of waves (more like quarter) and half/quarter the cooldown and AM usage. exact same DPS, but it is more easily countered.

as for balance among the other caps: I really think that the rest of the caps should be buffed. they're way too much like popcorn right now.

(for those who don't get it, they pop a lot)

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Quoting transitive,

reply 21

my opinion is that it needs a target cap and it needs a change to its channeling time and damage per wave. these numbers would have to be thoroughly tested to see what the right levels would be. obviously it should also make some kind of big red flashing light animation so people can tell whats going on.

at the moment i'm leaning on target cap in the neighborhood of 24 ships (still a large number, would be the biggest AoE in the game) and the delivery being changed from 20 waves of 150 to 10 waves of 200. this would actually increase its DPS but lower its "scales to infinity" absurdity.

Target cap for this ability is a bad suboptimal idea, imo. It would only be a matter of time, I give it 2-3 days, before someone figures out the cheapest ship for which the targetting algorithm has a high affinity. Then instead of looking to interrupt the ability, you waste supply and money dragging chaff ships with you everywhere.

Decreasing the range seems too harsh to seriously consider, at least I've not seen anyone put forward a good reason for it.

In my mind this is the kind of power you'd want to keep around to eliminate all the harrassing ships between you and your target. Hell, if it worked like CB(?) and just plowed everything on that straight shot, I'd say buff it to 15 waves of 200, making it harder to counter -as long as it doesn't acquire a new target if one strays into the path. Can you more experienced folks help me on the flaws in that thinking?

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thats the most ridiculous intellectually dishonest argument against a target cap i've ever seen. you basically said "they can't change it because...someone will cheat the changed system". give me a break. if you're gonna assume that those sorts of cheats and exploits exist than you can't argue for or against anything. thats total sophistry and you know it.

Dolynick has actually presented a very good "decreasing range" type of suggestion. rather than decreasing total distance he suggested changing the AoE from a circle to a column. that would effectively mitigate the "kill whole fleet in one shot" problem without making the ability too difficult to use.

and with regards to the "buff everything" suggestion that keeps propping up, you've all got the same ridiculous idea in your head that symmetry is balance. this is untrue. balance ought to be measure objectively. "buff everything" is the same as "unbalance everything". the game would be unfun to the extreme if every ship was an overpowered one shot fleet killer.

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Quoting transitive,

reply 12

thats the most ridiculous intellectually dishonest argument against a target cap i've ever seen. you basically said "they can't change it because...someone will cheat the changed system". give me a break. if you're gonna assume that those sorts of cheats and exploits exist than you can't argue for or against anything. thats total sophistry and you know it.

Dolynick has actually presented a very good "decreasing range" type of suggestion. rather than decreasing total distance he suggested changing the AoE from a circle to a column. that would effectively mitigate the "kill whole fleet in one shot" problem without making the ability too difficult to use.

and with regards to the "buff everything" suggestion that keeps propping up, you've all got the same ridiculous idea in your head that symmetry is balance. this is untrue. balance ought to be measure objectively. "buff everything" is the same as "unbalance everything". the game would be unfun to the extreme if every ship was an overpowered one shot fleet killer.

Dolynick didn't decrease the range. Decreasing the radius of the circle decreases the effective area by a power of two. Fine tuning that is going to be like buttering bread with a chainsaw. Programmers don't want more work. Besides, what I actually wrote, before I had read on to dolynick's post, is effectively advocating the exact same thing.

I'm really not interested in your word mincing. Sorry, just not my bag. But trading keeping an extra cap ship around for interrupt purposes sounds incredibly more palatable than dragging double that quantity in supply, credits, and metal around in chaff. It has nothing to do with cheating or exploits. ***Edit: Stars! is probably the best example of the onerous nature of chaff. Epic battles were losable because you had 1% less chaff than you needed. I would much rather have needed to keep 1 or 2 expensive specialty ships instead.***

Lastly, I just scrolled up and saw that it was your post I had responded to originally in this thread. If my opinion differing from yours is so upsetting, let me know, and I won't respond to you anymore. Had I scrolled up first, I probably wouldn't even be writing this one. Your call, man, it's irrelevant to me.

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Seriously i am glad that the devs don't read every single things that people post and take it to heart because if they did we would have a worthless game here. Leaving certain things and abilities powerful give each race its drawbacks and advantages. If everything was equal and nothing was powerful we would have three fledgling races that just looked different, now is that what you really want. Obviously, you have been bashed by a bunch of the Sins community and i hope you read every single post to realize just how bad your post actually is and the idea it contains. Nothing needs changed except your playing style.

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Quoting Orodum,

reply 10

an easy way to make MB more resonable -

half/quarter the number of waves (more like quarter) and half/quarter the cooldown and AM usage. exact same DPS, but it is more easily countered.

as for balance among the other caps: I really think that the rest of the caps should be buffed. they're way too much like popcorn right now.

(for those who don't get it, they pop a lot)

This would halve/quarter the total damage done? I don't think that's really quite the answer although even if they did that a Marza would still be powerful ability.

I can see how people defend the missle barrage and I can understand the people who say it needs a nerf. It reminds me of the Priestess of the moon in Warcraft 3 which had a similar ability which rained damage down on a large area around the hero. The difference between the marza and that hero are that you can have more than one marza as opposed to being limited to one and that ability I mentioned had a huge animation that told everyone is was going off. I think a good start for a next patch would be for them to just introduce a new animation that shouts out that the marza is firing it's missle barrage. The animation would probably have to center on the marza itself. For example it could take a flashing orange/red aura while it fires. I had originally thought streaking missles, but considering how many targets it hits and the missle salvos, that would probably crash many lower end systems.

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Well, I think the point of the argument for those who do not want to nerf the Marza is that it's ability is exactly how a lvl 6 ability should be. Despite being very powerful, it is still quite interruptable and dodgeable. It is one of the few really good capital ship abilities and I would like to see it stay that way. Yes, in a sense, it unbalances things. On the other hand, the Vasari and Advent have their advantages as well. For example, the Vasari have a moving Starbase. It just so happens that the TEC have something powerful in the form of one capital ship. But, hey, at least it is easier to stop a Marza than it is to stop the Advent Battleball.

Having it a little more obvious that the Marza is firing, I guess, would be fair. Though imo, it isn't too hard to notice that your entire fleet in the empire tree is flashing red.

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i'm not mincing words. i'm saying that you're trying to argue against something based on a very strange assumption to make. why would you assume that some sort of exploit exists that makes a particular solution not work very well?

assume that, in principle, a target cap cannot be exploited by throwing scouts into it in front of LRFs to absorb hits. assume that the targetting works in a way that is totally satisfactory to you. do you still think it is a bad solution, under those circumstances?

this is all i've asked you (or anyone) to do. be fair in your handling of the arguments on the table. i called your argument sophistry because you were unwilling to allow for the sorts of assumptions that i've asked in order for a fair assessment of that solution to be made. anything can be torpedoed for any reason you can think of if you go and introduce new assumptions. why not just assume that any change to Missile Barrage will make everyone's computers explode, and thats why you can't change it. see what i'm getting at?

please, try to offer an HONEST opinion of the various suggestions that have been made for changes. and by honest, i mean at least temporarily suspend your own agenda and allow the assumptions that the person proposing the change has asked you to assume.

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I can't believe people are trying to compare cleansing brilliance to MB, with a straight face no less. Do these people actually believe what they say, or are they saying it just to imagine the look on your face? I won't state why the comparison is ridiculous - it's absurd on the face of it.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Just how is MB OP? Let me count the ways:

1) The range on that shit is HUGE, I mean freaking HUGE.

2) People say you can run away from it after it fires up, but you can't. I have more replays now, of people trying to do just that. Entire fleets lost the second that crap fires up, even though the fleet was trying to run like hell.

3) It's omni-directional. I have a replay of a LONE marza bombing some dude's planet. The dude comes in with a large mass of assailants, stays at the maximum range of the assailants, and focus fires the BACK of the marza as it is bombing the planet. The marza never bothers turning around, it simply fires off MB while it continues to bomb the planet. The MB CURLS AROUND the front of the marza and fires BACKWARDS towards the assailants, killing every one of them at their maximum range.

The range on that crap needs a substantial nerf, the omnidirectional bullshit needs to be nerfed down to a cone (come on, shouldn't the damn thing at least have to turn around to fire that shit off?), the number of targets needs to be substantially reduced, etc. It's like Bobucles said - "you could nerf the everloving bejesus out of MB, and it would STILL be a good ability."

And who's that saying that marzas "aren't all that special" until they get missle barrage, and are one of the "inferior" capships? If I am not mistaken, marza has the highest dps of any capship in the game. And ALL of its abilities are good. Radiation bomb is good, incendiary shells is good, and raze planet is great. So with the ridiculously OP MB, it actually has FOUR damn good abilities.

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Quoting Swordsalmon,

reply 25

Marza's really aren't all that special until they get Missile Barrage, though. :/ I'd almost say it's one of the inferior Capital ships for TEC at the beginning. Akkan has colonizations, Sova has two squadrons and Missile Batteries for clearing out militia, and the Kol of course has the Gauss Rail Gun. While at first, the Marza has... Uranium Bomb. >__< And Dunov is obviously a terrible beginning capital ship.

Though still, I do think at the least, Missile Barrage should have less range so other ships actually have a chance to survive and use cancelling abilities. It isn't that fun to have forty Cobalts try to Sabatoge the Marza, but end up failing and get annihilated.

I disagree. Marza has highest dps of all ships (not even counting Incendiary shells and Radiation Bombs). Incendiary Shells and Radiation Bombs are good skills to have and can do a lot of damage. I would build Marzas even if it doesn't have MB; it can unleash a lot of hurt and raze planets. DPS plus planet bomber what more can you want?

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Wait you had a lot of illuminators, but you failed to kill marza? I see no problem here.

That's right Astax. I sent the illums to focus fire and kill the marza. Guess what happened? They all died. Now watch the bait and switch everybody, as I will now be attacked for the "stupidity" of trying to kill it instead of running away. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Interestingly, Astax, I think YOU are one of the "pros" in one of my replays who failed to interrupt MB correctly, and ate it in the face afterwards. You seemed to be pretty pissed at this in-game.

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Fact: Since I've started using the bailknight graghic mod I have taken almost no damage from missile barrage. It's so unbelievablly easy to counter its not funny.The thing is you can't see it happening unless your riding its back so to speak.(Without Mod) However, Two level 3 eggs can do the same thing and alot more. One egg with it's nano at lvl 3 can do more damage, because it casts much fastter. Where's the peeps with the pitchforks on that one?

Fact: You people who like to spam out excessive amounts of frigets. Then consistantly send ill prepare forces. Which ussually lack the proper counters to which their trying to counter. Then cry when a Marza reaches lvl 6. (Excert mean, smartass comment, insert something positive.) Spend more time watching your replays. The keys to your bad choices which lead to your demise are their, I assure you.

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It was my mistake. Of course I'll get angry at myself. I don't see why a game should be changed because I made a mistake. I deserved what I got.

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I can't believe people are trying to compare cleansing brilliance to MB, with a straight face no less. Do these people actually believe what they say, or are they saying it just to imagine the look on your face? I won't state why the comparison is ridiculous - it's absurd on the face of it.

We weren't comparing it to Cleansing Brilliance as a defense of Missile Barrage. The exact opposite actually. Maybe you didn't read the posts closely enough.

Cleansing Brilliance is the only other direct damage ability that I can think of that has no target limit and could, in theory, do infinite damage. Unlike Missile Barrage though, it's area of effect is such that the total damage aspect of it is more or less kept in check.

It's an example of why and how Missile Barrage is overpowered and could be rebalanced.

But seriously, if you don't want people giving clear examples to back you up then I can stop posting and trying to help your cause.

-dolynick

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Quoting F22_RAPTOR_001,

reply 14

Seriously i am glad that the devs don't read every single things that people post and take it to heart because if they did we would have a worthless game here. Leaving certain things and abilities powerful give each race its drawbacks and advantages. If everything was equal and nothing was powerful we would have three fledgling races that just looked different, now is that what you really want. Obviously, you have been bashed by a bunch of the Sins community and i hope you read every single post to realize just how bad your post actually is and the idea it contains. Nothing needs changed except your playing style.

Quoting lich1989,

reply 16

Well, I think the point of the argument for those who do not want to nerf the Marza is that it's ability is exactly how a lvl 6 ability should be. Despite being very powerful, it is still quite interruptable and dodgeable. It is one of the few really good capital ship abilities and I would like to see it stay that way. Yes, in a sense, it unbalances things. On the other hand, the Vasari and Advent have their advantages as well. For example, the Vasari have a moving Starbase. It just so happens that the TEC have something powerful in the form of one capital ship. But, hey, at least it is easier to stop a Marza than it is to stop the Advent Battleball.

Having it a little more obvious that the Marza is firing, I guess, would be fair. Though imo, it isn't too hard to notice that your entire fleet in the empire tree is flashing red.

AMEN some people do see the light.

Now to make my last and final case to show you MB isn't OPed I'll tell you why the DEVS have since it came to be a few months ago have not said a word on it and why they wont modify it by comparign it to the only combo that resembled MB.

That combo is CB + Malice before it got nerfed. And as soon as the problem showed up DEVS were quick to reply that they were commign with a fix for this. Since thsi fix people have stoped using the combo even thou it'S still extremly potent and powerfull. Not to mention is much mroe spamable then MB is. Now the reason they moved quickly to nerf it was becaus eit was a game breaking combo. Why? Because their was absolutely no counter possible that could be used to survive or defeat it. When you got hit you were dead everythign was dead. Absolutely no chance. That'S why they nerfed it.

Now MB is very powerfull and has the power to wipe out fleets. But that is incorect, it has the power to wipe out frigate spam fleets. If you tech up and vary your fleet MB become a nuisance and not a HOLYSHIT I'm dead. Plus they are many ways to counter it and avoid it. I named 4 counters on how to survive it and you chose to ignore me and reject them. Well i got news for you those are the exact same counters that I PERSONALY use on a reguler basis to stop MB of prevent it from even beign fired at me. Interupting is the best and most efficient way of countering it. Runnign away is the 2nd best option. I've ran away from so many MBs I've lost count. Now why can't you do it? I dunno I can do it why can't? Not payign sufficent attention tot he battle perhaps? Even if their is a marze present you should always pay very close attention to your battles because they can turn quickly. As for Tanking it, that'S somethign the Advent can do best. The Vasary can also do it but it's a bit more tricky (requires soem abilities that most people comsider useless and never research, honestly i wonder how people win soemtimes.) But doable, needs mroe micro. TEC cannot tank it very efficently, I've managed it once or twice but it's extremly hard and you need to ahve the right ammount fo ships AM to spare and alot fo luck. I still toke horrible damage and lsot alot of ships but was able to save half of my frigates. And finaly if you upgrade yoru fleet and vary you ships instead of just spaming LRFs even if you take MB in the face for it'S full force you'll just brush it off as a bad case of flees. Sure you'll lose your friagtes if you not ready to tank it or run. But if frigates is not all you have your not screwed.

And that is why the DEVS havent mention any "FIXS" for it and why they won't. Because you can do something about it. You have 4 basic methods to defeat MB take your pick. And whne you master these 4 basic methods you'll figure out they are other more complex ways to do it. One of these way was used by Reborn in a recent game we had. IT was simply not to rush in and take loses while my Marza was present. He defended his planet with a considerable force I didn't want to fight under his repair bay feild since he coudl ahve focused my Marza and kill it before it got to lvl 6. But he also wouldn't fight me at my own planet were my own repair feild would have prevented him from killing it and fleet would ahve torn his appart giving me my lvl 6 that would have sealed his fate.. So he stalemated, and we coldwarded at a standoff eye balling each other. Waiting for our allies to make some headway on their side. Who won in the end doesn't matter. What matters is he defeated my Marza by not fighting it.

So instead of complaning that's OP witch falls and death ear were I stand and from what I can see is also the same for the DEVS learn to live with it and to counter it properly. Learn to pay attention and get gracphic mods. Their's no reason no more not to get Bailknight and not use it to not get MB.

And with that I rest my case and have only this to add. Should you keep chosing not to listen how to counter it then EAT IT. BECAUSE I'LL JUST KEEP SERVING IT UNTIL YOU LEARN. Weather you learn it contructively or kicking and screaming the whole way makes ZERO difference to me.

AMEN and GOOD RIDENCE.

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ok marza is not OP all you need to counter the marza are some carriers

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