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Nerf the damn marza

Agent of Kharma

Join Date 02/2008

+31

Nerf the damn marza

Finally had a marza missle barrage me. Strangely enough, in a couple hundred games played (online), I've never had it happen. And since I don't play TEC, I've never used it before.

I was advent, playing against a TEC. He attacked me at one of my planets (all lrm, basically). I had a larger number of illums than he had lrm, and pushed him back - he took pretty big losses from my recollection. I then pressed ahead and attacked him. In waltzes his marza with some lrm. I still outnumbered him (with superior ships, no less) but all of a sudden my entire fleet went "poof" (30-something ships, from recollection).

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the ability to press a single button on a capship with one finger, while picking your nose with the other, and be able to evaporate a superior fleet... should be considered just a *LITTLE* bit OP. Just a little. Someone will say "but you can disable it or avoid it!" Boy, what a false choice! So all he has to do is pick his nose while pressing a button, and all the burden to either "disable" or "avoid" is on me? Now how is that anything close to "balanced?"

Boy, is that shit ever broken. They ought to nerf the hell out of that crap, and nerf it good. In fact it should have been nerfed ages ago. A superweapon, which takes a ridiculous amount of credits to build, all said and done, won't even do that to a fleet.

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Eh, those Marza lovers.

Take a piece of paper and run through ALL lvl6 cap ship abilities and try to explain why they rock.

You will see that ALL lvl6 cap abilities MAY ROCK ONLY IF you have certain other units in your fleet or in CERTAIN situations.

For instance, Volatile Nanites, one of the coolest Vasari cap abilities, requires you to have massive DPS on your side. If you don't have the dps, you won't begin the chain reaction; without the chain reaction, everything you earned was a temporary 30% boost to your dps. So it's only like "kill them fast or kill them faster with VN".
And so on. Cleansing brilliance doesn't wipe anything unless your enemy kindly puts its forces in a column, it required Malice to work well... Stabilize phase space on antorak is useful like 3 times per game and only if you have a fleet waiting by a phase stabilizer (if you have it researched and built, only useful IF the map is big... ), so it's basically useless in 90% of the games.

If if if if. Only useful if YOU (...). Very good IF YOU (...)...

But not Missile Barrage. No, the very balanced missile barrage draws from the very essence of this game. War, fleets and frigates.
How many of you don't have lots of frigates in their fleet by mid game? Everybody has, with the few exceptions of carrier spammers.

So, the basic imbalance on Missile Barrage is:

- All other lvl6 cap abilities are "only useful if YOU (insert some costly restrictions here)"
- Missile Barrage is "very useful unless the ENEMY (insert what he needs to have already bought or how carefully he has to babysit sit fleet)"

Let me speak to your imagination.

Imagine all lvl6 cap abilities were just as dangerous as the Missile Barrage (as in: "deadly unless the enemy has one of the 4 units in the game capable of interrupting it or flees immediately").
How would they look like?

Volatile nanites in "missile barrage-ish version":
Creates a large cloud of destructive nanites that deal 100 damage each second to everything in the area, increase damage received by 30% and cause destroyed targets to damage everything in small radius for 100 damage. Channeled ability, 20 sec duration.
How do you like that eh?

Dominate in "MB-like version:
Converts 2 frigates or one cruiser to your cause every second. Radius 10000 ( Marza's MB radius ). Channeled, lasts 25 seconds. Converted ships automatically scuttle after 180 seconds.
What do you think about THAT?

Disintegrate:
Deals 400 damage per second to target ship, 200 damage per second to everything in 6000 radius and heals the Vulkoras for 100 hit points per second.. Channeled, lasts 10 seconds.
Hah, this would actually require the enemy to move ONE unit instead of his whole fleet and the radius would be so much smaller. And yet, JUST HOW MUCH MORE POWERFUL IT IS compared to the Disintegrate we have right now?

What do you, Marza lovers, think about THESE huh?
Let me guess. "Omg imba lol!".
Well guess what, it's exactly what MB is.
Oh, some of you say "No they're not imba" ???
Well then, why are they so much worse right now? So much more DEPENDAND on your fleet? Why do they need so much effort of their owner to set them off, when Marza only needs a stupid click and it's all about how fast your opponent is?

Did it even ever occur to you that one could have a lvl6 Marza + a lvl1 Akkan and such a composition REQUIRES the enemy to actually bring TWO akkans/revelations/marauders to counter? (lvl1 akkan ion bolts the enemy's akkan/revel/marauder, Marza does MB, case closed).
And who EVER needs two marauders?? That's it, a Vasari who'd want to counter this would need the most useless cap in the game times two (Vasari have no other effective ability breaker, Ravastra's interference won't prevent a Marza/Akkan from using their sh*t)

Final word: Missile Barrage IS IMBALANCED. It MAY NOT be OVERPOWERED in general, but it is TOTALLY OFF THE SCALE compared to everything everybody else has.
If every faction had "act now or die" abilities it would be fine. Right now, it's off.

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i take it a step further and say "if every faction had act now or die abilities it would be fine" is a false statement. it would be very not ok. it would be an unfun game.

it really keeps coming down to this one question.

evaluate this statement, true or false:

Missile Barrage is MUCH MORE POWERFUL than every other capital ship ability in the game.

we all know that its a true statement. if you don't perceive this sort of out-of-whack power level as a problem then you don't want anything changed. if you dislike that one thing is so out of whack, you want it changed.

i'm not even trying to convince anyone of anything anymore. i just want people to be honest about the situation really is. Sins is still a very good and fun game, even though the Marza is the strategic titan of the game at the moment.

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Malice was not changed cause of CB. It was changed because of the recursive nature of damage calcualtion which bogged down the game engine.

Malcie was also nerfed, by having it only affect x amount of targets. That nerf might have had something to do with CB. But even so Malice with new duration was not really useful in conjunction with CB, the timign would have to be so perfect only the best of the best could use the 2 in conjunction.

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We weren't comparing it to Cleansing Brilliance as a defense of Missile Barrage. The exact opposite actually. Maybe you didn't read the posts closely enough...But seriously, if you don't want people giving clear examples to back you up then I can stop posting and trying to help your cause.

dolynick, my "cleansing brilliance" comment wasn't directed at you. I understood your point, and agreed with it. My comment was directed at about 10 other people who, in defending missle barrage, have said something like "well cleansing brilliance does the same, but nobody wants to nerf that!" Cleansing brilliance is a joke compared to MB. I've never hit more than a couple of ships with that ability, ever.

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AMEN and GOOD RIDENCE.

Are you and your useless comments gone now? Really? THANK GOD! And yes, GOOD RIDDANCE!

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Fair enough. I just didn't recall anyone comparing it to Cleansing Brilliance until I posted the run down of other big name abilities.

I honestly think Cleansing Brilliance holds the answer to all the aspects of Missile Barrage that you've commented on in your last post. Changing it to a column doesn't mean that it necessarily has to be as narrow (and thus as difficult to hit a good number of targets with) as Cleansing Brilliance. It also makes you have to "aim" the Marza in some basic way too. The trick is if you make it too wide, and hence too easy to target yet unlike CB then you need at least some sort of target cap on it too (which can be reasonably high still to keep the ability "good").

I'd whip up some tiny little "fix" mods and post the various ways of changing MB for people to try but I doubt it would do much good.

-dolynick

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CB works great against comp. heres the thing

A CB malice combo CURRENTLY requires a level 6 radiance AND a level 5 progen. this will allow you to kill 30 some targets maybe(assume you got a nice deal on the malice and some other ships were lined up in the shot. all of this requries of fairly well timing of 2 abilities with a very minimal grace period(none). all for a pay off of 30-some ships. and any enemy who sees this will A. spread out his ships B. order an interrupt skill when malice is done again. severe diminishing returns, to say the least. the enemy doesn't even HAVE TO counter this because it isn't all that game breaking, and if he does then u'r pretty much defanged.

now, if

1. multiple malices interacted, IE with 3 level 3 malices 72 targets ALL shared damage then CB would be nice. however, this requires an investment of THREE level 5 progens and a level 6 radiance. as is this isnt possible.

2. take malice back to the old unlimited targets 10%->20%->30% method. now that the damage is only applied at the end im sure it wouldn't be such a performance issue. this would mean paying a level 5 progen and level 6 radiance, and provide scaled payoff comparable to MB. i bet all the MB fans would call imba on this.

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ShadowMastiff2468

Join Date 08/2008

+67

Quoting N3rull,

reply 1

Eh, those Marza lovers.

Take a piece of paper and run through ALL lvl6 cap ship abilities and try to explain why they rock.

You will see that ALL lvl6 cap abilities MAY ROCK ONLY IF you have certain other units in your fleet or in CERTAIN situations.

For instance, Volatile Nanites, one of the coolest Vasari cap abilities, requires you to have massive DPS on your side. If you don't have the dps, you won't begin the chain reaction; without the chain reaction, everything you earned was a temporary 30% boost to your dps. So it's only like "kill them fast or kill them faster with VN".
And so on. Cleansing brilliance doesn't wipe anything unless your enemy kindly puts its forces in a column, it required Malice to work well... Stabilize phase space on antorak is useful like 3 times per game and only if you have a fleet waiting by a phase stabilizer (if you have it researched and built, only useful IF the map is big... ), so it's basically useless in 90% of the games.

If if if if. Only useful if YOU (...). Very good IF YOU (...)...

But not Missile Barrage. No, the very balanced missile barrage draws from the very essence of this game. War, fleets and frigates.
How many of you don't have lots of frigates in their fleet by mid game? Everybody has, with the few exceptions of carrier spammers.

So, the basic imbalance on Missile Barrage is:

- All other lvl6 cap abilities are "only useful if YOU (insert some costly restrictions here)"
- Missile Barrage is "very useful unless the ENEMY (insert what he needs to have already bought or how carefully he has to babysit sit fleet)"

Let me speak to your imagination.

Imagine all lvl6 cap abilities were just as dangerous as the Missile Barrage (as in: "deadly unless the enemy has one of the 4 units in the game capable of interrupting it or flees immediately").
How would they look like?

Volatile nanites in "missile barrage-ish version":
Creates a large cloud of destructive nanites that deal 100 damage each second to everything in the area, increase damage received by 30% and cause destroyed targets to damage everything in small radius for 100 damage. Channeled ability, 20 sec duration.
How do you like that eh?

or

Dominate in "MB-like version:
Converts 2 frigates or one cruiser to your cause every second. Radius 10000 ( Marza's MB radius ). Channeled, lasts 25 seconds. Converted ships automatically scuttle after 180 seconds.
What do you think about THAT?

or

Disintegrate:
Deals 400 damage per second to target ship, 200 damage per second to everything in 6000 radius and heals the Vulkoras for 100 hit points per second.. Channeled, lasts 10 seconds.
Hah, this would actually require the enemy to move ONE unit instead of his whole fleet and the radius would be so much smaller. And yet, JUST HOW MUCH MORE POWERFUL IT IS compared to the Disintegrate we have right now?

What do you, Marza lovers, think about THESE huh?
Let me guess. "Omg imba lol!".
Well guess what, it's exactly what MB is.
Oh, some of you say "No they're not imba" ???
Well then, why are they so much worse right now? So much more DEPENDAND on your fleet? Why do they need so much effort of their owner to set them off, when Marza only needs a stupid click and it's all about how fast your opponent is?

Did it even ever occur to you that one could have a lvl6 Marza + a lvl1 Akkan and such a composition REQUIRES the enemy to actually bring TWO akkans/revelations/marauders to counter? (lvl1 akkan ion bolts the enemy's akkan/revel/marauder, Marza does MB, case closed).
And who EVER needs two marauders?? That's it, a Vasari who'd want to counter this would need the most useless cap in the game times two (Vasari have no other effective ability breaker, Ravastra's interference won't prevent a Marza/Akkan from using their sh*t)

Final word: Missile Barrage IS IMBALANCED. It MAY NOT be OVERPOWERED in general, but it is TOTALLY OFF THE SCALE compared to everything everybody else has.
If every faction had "act now or die" abilities it would be fine. Right now, it's off.

I LOVE THOSE ABILITIES!!! THEY OWN!!!!!!

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Missile Barrage IS IMBALANCED. It MAY NOT be OVERPOWERED in general, but it is TOTALLY OFF THE SCALE compared to everything everybody else has.
If every faction had "act now or die" abilities it would be fine. Right now, it's off.

That is totally correct. btw, I like your sarcastic changes to the other cap ships. I agree, MB is not an "I win button" it is an "act now or lose button". No other race has anything like it.

Devs, please change it so that it actually fits in with the rest of the game. Right now MB holds too much importance for a single ship.

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I dont understand why people are complaining, its obvious that missile barrage is OP. It should at least have a maximum number of target. The argumant that you can stop missile barrage with other abilities is true, so all one has to do is build the right capital ship to counter the Marza, dont use its abiliies to preserve the antimatter and activate your ability the moment the other guy uses the missile barrage, not OP, yeah, right!!!

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thats the most ridiculous intellectually dishonest argument against a target cap i've ever seen. you basically said "they can't change it because...someone will cheat the changed system".

Actually, it sounded more like "You can't target cap missile barrage. They'll just throw more ships at it!" Which is one of the more blatant pro-meatgrinder comments of the thread.

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Ok, seriously now, why are people asking for nerfs for a unit that is not broken. The MB is not overpowered! Agent of Khamra, the reason people are treating you like crap is because you sound like a 9 year old who lost in something screaming and ranting because you think that the game is broken, the person hacked, or the person cheated, whatever. If you want people to treat you with respect, treat others with it and act like a civilized person when making an argument.

The reason I say that MB is not overpowered because it is easily avoidable and interruptable. Plus the Marza can be countered easily by strikecraft. From reading this thread and going what the hell are people ranting about now, here is what i see from what you have said. This may not be true but I think im pretty damn close but of course you'll scream and rant cliaming it wasn't so.

I think that you were in a spamming war with LRF's (which you have stated) and that you weren't really paying attention to the battle, that you were actually just zoomed out sending units as fast as possible to that front to try to win the spam war. Then when you noticed that he sent a cap ship in or it was already there, you went, "oh its a marza, nothing to worry about" then next thing you know your fleet is gone, then you actually zoom in and find out it was a lvl 6 marza, then you started ranting and raving about how unfair it is, etc... From this scenerio, which seems like what happened telling from your tone and posting, you lost due to bad tatics, not paying attention, and doing a spam, and most importanly allowing your opponent to get a lvl 6 marza.

All you had to do, is yes build some carriers with SC and do the kiting method on it. But since you said that you didn't want to go that route that your too busy spamming LRF's, youve couldve done multiple other things to stop it. One would be to get your opponent to prematurely trigger it by using a faint (if you don't know what this is then you know nothing of tactics in warfare). this could be done by scouting ahead, oh wait you were probably in the system already fighting so you would've seen the marza if you were paying attention, by scouting ahead you can see what he has, what you do then is hold back your forces and send a small group in hoping he uses the MB, if he does then you jump in and hunt down the marza while MB is on cooldown, if he doesn't use it and then stays back alittle, all you need to do then is build counters to the marza. This is of course if you noticed he has a lvl 6 marza.

Counters to the MB have been stated left and right, from sabatoge reactors (tec, draining his anti so he cant even trigger it, its quite an expensive ability, MB that is) to build guardians as the advent to soak up the damage and even investing in research to make your ships have more health, armor and shields which go along way.

Restating myself to you and all the people on this thread demanding a nerf to the marza MB, it does not need to be nerfed, you just need to use tactics instead of blind spamming, if you see a lvl 6 marza, then run away or actually do something about it instead of whining if your fleet gets killed. Also, diversify your fleet!!!! spamming one type of unit will not win a game all the time, there are many synergies within the ships abilites that make a diversified fleet unstoppable.

Thats all i have to say, you may agree with me or hate me i dont care, just stop this whining and moaning and grow up.

*edit, BTW That other person earlier on the thread talking about the AI interrupting his MB, it has happened to me multiple times, usally when the AI is on hard or unfair, it doesnt happen all the time but it does happen.

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Ok, seriously now, why are people asking for nerfs for a unit that is not broken. The MB is not overpowered! The reason I say that MB is not overpowered because it is easily avoidable and interruptable.youve couldve done multiple other things to stop it. One would be to get your opponent to prematurely trigger it by using a faint it does not need to be nerfed, you just need to use tactics instead of blind spamming, if you see a lvl 6 marza, then run away or actually do something about it instead of whining if your fleet gets killed.

Some people are either willingly blind to balance issues or are too lazy to actually counter the opposition's arguments.

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Having to stare at a single unit until your eyes water makes for a really stupid battle.

At least Cleansing Brilliance+Malice takes skill to use. Still doesn't even compare to MB.

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Nice cropping of selected words using it in a qoute block, just a warning, i think someone got banned for doing that as it takes the persons whole statement out of context.

***Edit: now that i remember, they got banned for creating a false qoute reply. still cropping words into a block is very childish.

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amazing how peple should just have to learn to counter MB. i never, EVER hear that about another skill. really. how often do you sit there in anticapation waiting for the hands to reach out from the progen when a high level radiance is sitting next to it?

"learn to counter it" Why the hell is this skill the only one that requires serious effort from those on the receiving end? one ship, one click. Boom. ur whole fleet can go bye bye. the only remotely comparable skill to this is the advent's meteor control, and that one is so easily countered--and does no where near as much damage...or in all directions.

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Rather than a true nerf, I’d just like to see the missile barrage ability made a little more visible. As it stands, it’s kind of hard to spot unless you spend the entire battle squinting exclusively at your enemy’s Marza, or you notice the sudden drop in fleet numbers (by which time it’s too late).

If you just tweaked it a little, so that the missile bay glowed while the ability was activated – and possibly gave the ability a few seconds ‘wind-up’ while we’re at it – it’d at least give the enemy a chance to react. It’d be a decent way of mitigating the (admittedly absurd) damage output of MB without just watering it down… after all, most cap ships (egg and mothership being the other exceptions) are a little under-represented as things stand.

(PS I think this might’ve been suggested earlier in the thread, but repetition FTW).

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there's no serious arguement that disproves this true statement: Missile Barrage is MUCH MORE POWERFUL than everything other capital ship ability in the game.

the only point thats been made with any relevance is that some people don't think its inherently problematic to have a single incredibly imbalanced unit. they point out that its possible to play around it and that thats a good enough balance mechanism for them.

personally i dislike the notion that we can tolerate one flagrantly imbalanced unit just because its possible to play around it. the game as a whole would be better if things were more balanced.

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For those that say this MB is an unfair ability, think about this: if your game is unblanced in ability vs ability, then you need tactics and strategies. Such as fooling your enemy into thinking that you are weak, make them waste the ability then bring in the main fleet and wipe the floor with them. This works better if you have an ally laying in wait when there are only two phase lanes out. Their toast.

Next you can use diplomacy; if your fleet is badly damaged and you need time make an ally, get the other players at each other throats and with them weakened from it you mop the floor with them again. Do not weaken abilitys if you do not truly need to. When your the underdog in come out on top against what seems to be impossible odds you can call your self a true game master.

Heres a joke I just thought up.

"Complaining Vermin all of you! Thinking what I wonder? That you may escape the caming fire. No your worlds shall burn untill their surface is but glass, and even you endlessly complaining Demons, burned from your holes mirrored to the reflection of our non-complaining journey shall be destroyed! For your destruction is the will of the non-complaining gaming gods! And we? We who do not complain but use our minds to win against impossible odds are game gods!

This is your fate once the Halo mod for Sins is ready, all your worlds shall burn under plasma.

Wining against the odds makes you feel better, you can be happy and congratulate your self.

Your mind is more powerful then any ability.

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Lol easily interruptable? Hahahahha.

MB is definitely imbalanced, and I play TEC 100% of the time.

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Ryat

Join Date 06/2006

+429

Quoting transitive,

reply 18

there's no serious arguement that disproves this true statement: Missile Barrage is MUCH MORE POWERFUL than everything other capital ship ability in the game.

the only point thats been made with any relevance is that some people don't think its inherently problematic to have a single incredibly imbalanced unit. they point out that its possible to play around it and that thats a good enough balance mechanism for them.

personally i dislike the notion that we can tolerate one flagrantly imbalanced unit just because its possible to play around it. the game as a whole would be better if things were more balanced.

I do agree with transitive. MB is the most powerful ability of the game. Flip side is that there will always be an ability that is stronger than others unless you have symmetrical balance. And we all seem to not want that (though some claim that this is true of Sins).

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Lol easily interruptable? Hahahahha.

Yeah, LOL. Don't you just love that? What really pisses me off about the statement more than anything else is that it presumes that I have the resources just laying there to build a second capship, and have it ready when his damn marza hits level 6. I mean, I've furiously thrown everything at this guy in this game, and he's thrown everything at me too. Neither of us have spare funds for jack crap. But all of a sudden *I'M* the guy who's supposed to have the funds to 1) research crew, and 2) buy a second capship, just because his marza hits level 6?

It's the same BS as when they say I should have tons of iconus shield guardians sitting there, ready to tank his MB. Do you know how much researching and time and money that takes? You gotta cycle through like 4 levels of shield upgrades to open up that unit. The funny thing is, I was actually on the way to doing this, in a tight game no less. I think the unit was actually researching to be honest. And flak was already researched too in case carriers appeared (which they didn't). But what did this dude have to sacrifice and research? NOTHING, because I checked the replay.

Funny, one dude claims I should have had several levels of hull upgrades. ON TOP OF THE SHIELD UPGRADES I HAD BEEN RESEARCHING TO GET GUARDIANS?!?! So in a furious, hard fought, hectic, close game I'm supposed to have an extra capship, shield guardians (which require 3 or 4 shield upgrades to unlock), other cruisers as well, plus hull upgrades! And he has to have NOTHING! Boy, I just love their reasoning that this is somehow not unbalanced or OP. Apparently I'm supposed to just snap my fingers and have an extra cap, tons of shield guardians, yadda yadda.

And quit with the accusation that we are "demanding a nerf." Nobody here is demanding anything, nobody is in a position to demand anything. This is a forum, we are simply using it, plain and simple.

It would be relatively easy for me to simply switch to TEC so I could force the OTHER guy to have all the worries you MB defenders have outlined (additional caps, additional techs, additional cruisers, etc). However, I personally don't think it would do a single thing to make me a better player. Rather it would simply provide me with an "I win" button. Well, some people apparently enjoy that, but I wouldn't.

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symmetrical balance would be boring. however, that doesn't mean that there can be some sort of acceptable range of difference that all the abilities in the game must be within to count as balanced.

Missile Barrage is obviously an abberation on the power level scale. thats what bothers me about it. i know how to play around it and i do all the time, but it feels wrong that the situation comes up at all. its just 1 ship.

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Again and again and again, it is not MB being overpowered.

It is other caps' abilities utterly underpowered.

I feel like I am now a broken record machine....

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By the way, all of these discussions remind me one battle against JohnJames.

He had a nice level 7 Marza, while I had a nice level 5 Akkan.

We both had crapload of Kodiaks and other stuffs.

JJ attacked me, immediately used MB.

I immediately fired ion bolt.

It took some time for JJ to realize that his Marza failed at MB and was verge of death.

He tried to run.

But thanks to wonderful pathing AI, instead of escape his army crashed into my army.

In the end he and I both lost caps. bye bye my Akkan.

This made me think if I had not have Akkan. Probably I tried to run, but probably failed thanks to pathing issue, and he obviously won that game.

It seems in entrenchment, pathing issue got much worse IMO.

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