Do Vasari Mines not work against the Starbase? It would be nice to have a ruiner lay mines and lure the Starbase into them.

Oh yeah you can throw mines around. And what then? You spew 3k credits worth of mines and the starbase will still be spitting doom upon your fleet from behind them or circle the mines. Besides, he can do the same to you (we're talking vasari vs vasari). Moreover, one scout and the starbase will clear mines faster than a dozen flak frigs.

Not really a stable strategy.

So they do work? Hooray! Well, if you had not put in those credits that that guy put into upgrading his Starbase, you should have the fleet advantage. You should be able to clear away his ships and ruiner and lay your own mines. If he does circumnavigate his Starbase around your mines, well, he is certainly spending a lot of effort on it. In the mean time, your ships should run faster than his Starbase. If he his chasing you with his ships, your mines will continue to irk his fleet too. This whole time, you can bomb his Starbase with bombers. Scouts are tricky, but your strikecraft should take care of it easily. Hoping you have a Desolator, Death Egg, and Maruader...that way, you can drop siege platforms and suck planet every once in a while too. You can get his Starbase hitting his own orbital structures further slowing it down. Eventually, you may just be able to down the planet and start building things like Repair Platforms. Or maybe you will have bombed the Starbase to death.

Though, I think the point of Starbases was to make them worth the investment and really good for defense. So...instead, I'm going to root for the Starbase and hope that you can't make headway. It isn't that easy with TEC assualt cruisers since they are really fragile and frontal shields is a pain. Can the Starfish run away and still shoot?

On the other hand, to avoid frontal shields, you can have part of your fleet shoot the front and the brunt of your fleet hit the back. A lot of micro involved, yes. Oh, and the Nano-Disassember is good. The desolator does bonus damage against the Starbase and its lvl 6 is pretty good too. You can even use your Marauder to warp in reinforcements from anywhere. Kotsuras can help too, it works better when shields are down though. You could try to build a Starbase as well on the opposite side of the Grav Well. As the enemy rushes to kill you upcoming Starbase, shoot it in the back.

Anyways, a lot of the time, when people build Starbases, they just get avoided or killed early and the player who used them will end up losing.

Bah, whatever, go Starbase!!

Lich, you have just spent about 50000 credits in that battle.
Mines, Marauder, Vulkoras, Carriers, Egg and whatnot.
Pointing out that if you do EVERYTHING then that single starbase is gonna die is not a valid point. You can't do EVERYTHING, otherwise the game is over before you are even halfway prepared.

Most of your initial arguments are off track as well. What makes you think that you can wipe his fleet easily? What makes you think that, regardless of having a floating Starbase and tactical sructures and whatever, he will actually rush his inferior fleet into your armadah of doom?
The defender should keep his fleet near his starbase. There's only one moment when he should rush you and it is when you're trying to build a starbase. Your starbase can't run away from his, so you can't do all that dancing you talked about.
Mind that Vasari too have Enforced Loyalty (aux government equivalent).

Your post is all about imagination unless you post a replay how a non-retardedly placed and defended starbase goes down to a clever use of your 'tactics'. You just kept throwing Ace after Ace from your sleeves as if you had a card factory in there.
Fleets are not composed of EVERYTHING because you would require dozens of thousands of credits to research that EVERYTHING. It's better to have more ships than a handful of ships and all research done. Research alone won't save you.

So, summing it up, your post in purely theoretical.

Seems to me that everyone just still kind of ignore the fact that there is a fleet there as well.  Running around to lure the starbase around isn't a viable strategy when the ships in the orbit are going to chase you down and fire at you while you're busy running from the starbase.  Short of using kosturas, building his own starbase, or using completely overwhelming brute force, I don't see what other kind of options he has if he wants to attack that particular planet.

There would be no problem if building his own starbase was a viable counter to a deployed Orky. It was after all the intended counter to starbases that IC gave Vasari instead of torpedo cruisers.
Well, it is not a viable counter vs Orky. A newly built starbase (assuming you are able to build it at all) can only tickle an upgraded starbase and die in seconds. The most important advantage it has above other SBs (they can't move, Orky can) is null and void against a defending Orky which will float up its ass before it's halfway built.

So all you can do in this match is use Kosturas (which are foultardedly expensive) and brute force (aka SPAM).

Being the only matchup that gives the attacker only these two options (none of which being doable until very end game), it is screwed.

i mostly go with 1 Egg, 1 Carrier Cap, and a bunch of HC and Overseers to the starbase. Longrangefrigs fight against fleet out of the firerange of the starbase. Some carriers will support as i mostly have some in my fleet.

 

The overseers and the capcarrier will heal the HC. With Nanodiassembler the starbase will fall.

 

@N3rull: great post about offtopic i hate it too. 

 

Sory to say, this is just another 'spam' attack.

1] LRFs aren't safe out of Orky's attack range. Orky can move. If you want to keep retreating your LRFs, you are wasting a lot of firepower on dancing.
2] Nano disassembler loses on its effectiveness with every defensive upgrade on the starbase. Insane armor makes the -6 debuff a lot less effective than when used against low armor targets. 30dmg/sec is reduced by armor too, which will still be way over 10 points even with 6 substracted.
3] He has a fleet as well, it's not just a big flying brick that you're fighting. Overseers will heal his starbase, Subverters will turn of your spamfleet now and again. His HCs will focus your own and kill them off one by one while you're trying to reduce the huge pile of hit points on the starbase.

Vasari have nothing that excels at killing structures/starbases other than their own starbase, which in this scenario is offensively useless (cause the defending one will wipe it)

Clearly what  the vasari need is a kamekaze structure killing frigate. I hear the ruiner tends to keep plenty of explosives on board...

Ok, so we agreed that we would have a superior fleet. Well, if they did spend an upgrade on Auxiliary Government, that is one less upgrade on something else. Yes, my post was theoretical, but we are talking about a Starbase that is fully upgraded and is supposedly at a point where you can't just leave it for last. On the research topic...what have we researched...carriers, fleet upgrades, ruiner, Starbase deployment. Not really asking for that much.

Now then, though it is a pain to kill that Starbase, it is certainly doable. Now this is assuming you have accumulated that fleet over the entire course of the game so a large fleet isn't unreasonable. I hope that I can make the assumption that you have the superior or equal econ/territory given that your fleet will wipe out his fleet anywhere else.

Ok, so his fleet is going to stick with his Starbase, that's fine. If that is the case, that is fine. Use your ships to attack his tactical/civilian structures--particularly the hangers and regen bays. While running around, you either force him to outrun his Starbase or force him to lag behind with his Starbase. You can drop mines while you are at it.  Credits providing, you can build your own Starbase in the minefield you lay down--hopefully on the opposite side of the Grav Well. If you are lucky, his fleet will leave the Starbase and go attack there. You are ahead of them since you are running from the Starbase so you can go cut them off. Get his Starbase snagged in behind some structure too if you can. I'm not sure...but a Maruader might help your Starbase move faster too. If you have money left, more mines for the pursuing Starbase/fleet. All in all, yes, more theoretical stuff, but maybe you can pull it off.

Just so I am on the same page, are we saying that Vasari vs Vasari is no good because they don't have an Anti-Structure cruiser. Therefore, they need an anti-structure cruiser? Or since Vasari are about mobility, they don't need one but don't do squat against that fortified position.

Out of curiousity, how can you not attack another front? Even if their fleet tries to attack your now exposed front, you can Phase Gate right back to it. Yes, your Marauder will be left alone...but his fleet is elsewhere and you can jump back in later. Heck you can even drop a Starbase on that vulnerable position. With a PJI on your front, you can wipe out a lot of his fleet if he tries to retreat. If you have him cornered or he has a fully upgraded Starbase on every planet. Well, he has already lost cuz he probably has very few planets and a pitiful fleet. He isn't going to be able to get anywhere and you can eventually take him out. This is assuming he isn't whooping you so badly that he has nothing better to spend credits on .

Oh dear. Read the thread before throwing walls of text that is just plain theory on something we're not talking about.

A little. Exactly, 12/14k credits worth.No, we did not talk about a fully upgraded Starbase. We talked about a 3/4 def and 2/3 attack Orky. It will screw you badly enough if you ignore it, don't worry. You forgot your "bunch" of heavy cruisers and a few cap ships and....Translated: You can SPAM a starbase. That's something other races don't have to do, nor Vasari have to do against another race himself. That is what's wrong.LOL! Read the thread. No you can't make that assumption. We're not talking about how to kill a starbase of a player that already lost, cause thatis no problem. You are both equal in power/econ, but he just took over a chokepoint gravwell from where he can raid your most prescious worlds and spent 12k credits on a starbase there. You are 30 assailants ahead. That's no 'wipe out' advantage beyond 30th minute.

This part is totally derailed. If you leave your building starbase undefended, he doesn't have to move more than 5 ships to counter it, regardless of the minefield. Stop thinking in Black and White. He doesn't have to rush his whole fleet at you and he doesn't have to stick every single ship to the starbase. He will adapt, just like you are trying to.
You're playing chess with yourself, you keep winning day by day and then you're surprised a 10 year-old beats you in the weekend. I say again, your story is nice and all, but we all know a good lawyer can drag a murderer out of prison. you aren't going to talk your way out of a battle in the game.No. They need the Orky tweaked to work well against another Orky in particular. The problem is that you cannot do that in a straightforward way because Vasari don't fight Vasari lore-wise. So a research/upgrade/ability that clearly works against Vasari only will be silly.In order of appearance:
- You can't attack another front because he just fortified a choke point. A choke point is a place that blocks your way into his empire and which makes you take a very long route around if you want to circle it. AND BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS ABOUT KILLING THE STARBASE !!!111<oneoneone>
- You can phase gate right back to it, assuming he doesn't blow your Phase Stabilizer before you jump.
- What will keep the guy from sending five carriers against your Marauder? 10 vasari bomber squads  is well enough to deal with a lone Marauder. Besides, Marauder is useless. Now please, no more theoretical crap on it. I know all its abilities inside out. And I know Marauder shows up in less than 5% games and only as a counter to Marza's MB. There is a reason to it. That reason goes like this: Marauder is better in theory than for real.
- You drop a starbase an then what? Anything will kill a fresh starbase and you're actually working against your own advantage right now.
- that note about the PJI is pure lol. Identifies you as a SP player. It only works on AIs. Every player will kill that PJI right after killing the Phase stabilizer.

 

Before you post your theories again, please back them up with example of it actually working.
Replay, set of screenshots, whatever.
Just no more heaps of ifs, thens, supposes and assumes.

I read most of the first page (before it got completely side tracked) and the OP.

I've encountered a Vasari Starbase (granted, with lvl 2 or 3 defense, not 4) and an enemy fleet before as Vasari and I didn't have a great deal of trouble killing it (though it coset me) using similiar tactics to what is already been said. I wear the enemy fleet down with lots of ships, reinforcing as fast as I can, and when his fleet is down, focus-fire on the base. With a frontal sheild, I flank it.

I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but that is how I take out Vasari starbases as Vasari. One thing to keep in mind though is that if he's Vasari, he is also effected by the same limitations. He has no anti-starbase weapons outside of his own base as well.

 

There really should be an anti-stucture ship or ability for the Vasari..... perhaps allowing phasic cloaking (I think that's it, what the scout has for an upgrade) to be how Vasari starbases are built in hostile systems. With other ships augmenting it (repair and such) once it's built, it might make it viable, or even have additional migrators help build it's defenses and weapons quicker. [EDIT] Or perhaps allowing a starbase to be upgraded with a one time phase jump drive!

Okay, this thread is going nowhere if we keep going around like this. N3rull, and anyone else who's taking that side of the discussion, have decided that Vasari starbases are OP'd against Vasari and need a programming fix, and the other side says no way, no fix needed. I've gotten to the point where I can see both sides of the argument, and N3rull could be right, so the only way I see to stop this from continuing to be a waste of time is to set up a game. This isn't me calling you out, I'm trying to keep ability out of it until it comes down to tactics and not strategy. I'd say 30-45 minutes to expand, set up a 5-upgrade starbase on one side and whatever the other side wants on the other, and then try and destroy the starbase, and still be able to protect yourself (no suicide attack). I'm willing to let someone else do this, or multiple someones. Try to keep ability even in your matchups, obviously we can't keep ability entirely out of this. If someone wishes me to set up a game, I would be happy to do so. Contact me through this thread so we can set up a time, it will probably be on a weekend. Results and USEFUL screenshots, and a recorded game, should be posted by anyone who tests this.

Namely, you spam it. I wonder why the enemy doesn't reinforce his own fleet. AI?

Which he has deployed and you don't. Dunno if it can be called a limitation for him.

what makes you think that any race isn't going to have a problem with so fortified a grav well? you say the attackers can spam assault cruisers....well, guess what: 1. his fleet is going to have plenty of SC 2. SB has frontal shield and will run over the assault cruisers, and then eat them. Same dilemma.

i'd say make good use of support cruisers to thrash his fleet. vasari-suberter-lockdown; advent-repulse to push ships away and then run to a tenable corner of the gravwell; tec-use cielos and hope you can kill him before his SB shows up.

The thing about using SC's is that phasic traps are sort of a problem; you have to let the SB move out a bit before you can engage.

you gotta be willing to put in on the line and attempt to destroy everything he has. If you can destroy his Sb and his fleet, he is screwed, even if you lose most all your frigates and several caps. and if its so late in the game that both have max supply fleets and he has a tricked out gravwell, its probably time to bring out kosturas.

Sticking to the thread topic...as mentioned already...use bombers and kite the carriers.

This is against AI. They are pretty oblivious to Phase Gates and PJI's.They will also charge recklessly into your fleet or retreat. They also fall pretty easily for mines.

It has, and yes it was the AI. I usually set up a few shipyards in the nearest system and do this. Granted, I shouldn't have to do that in order to kill a single starbase, but it's how I do it (works, but not nearly as well as TEC or Advent solutions).

If he attacks your starbased system, he's in the same attack boat you're in. You can't effectively take out his starbase, but he can't yours either.

 

*sigh* I don't think fighting Vasari starbases as Vasari was taken into account when they decided on what anti-starbase weapons everyone would get.

 

P.S. For clarity's sake, I am, for the most part, agreeing with you.

 

heres a hint. level 2 of mass disorientation has a range of 12000 ppl need to learn how to use & abuse SB's. they're not ships.

WTH are you talking about? This is about Vas vs Vas, what's Transcencia got to do with it?

Is this thread even adressing the OP problem anymore?  I wonder what is happening with his situation.  OP is you're reading this and still are stuck please provide us some more details on your particular game. 

No; we can apparently expect any N3rull to turn any Vasari-Vasari thread into another duplicate of his previous rantings while he presumes that Vasari should ignore its strategic advantage of mobility and instead attempt to duplicate other faction's strengths into bludgeoning choke points.

There are *no* choke points against a sufficiently teched Vasari in intrasystem warfare.   This is not something that either of the other factions can say... ever.  So yes, a single fortified system can be expensive to take, but the expense required to defend it isn't defending anywhere else, and isn't particularly important to power projection in the late game (considering that Vasari don't have to have any nearby territory at all to launch an attack)... and a single fortified system can't sustain the economy necessary to replace losses from attrition.  So that leaves either counterattacks (possibly resulting in mutual devastation system-wide, and elsewhere -- making the bases largely irrelevant other than as PS nodes) or attempts to corner the attackers (which can be tricky depending on what they brought with them, and how good the attacker is at arranging multiple fleets and micromanaging -- considering that neither attacker nor defender can change orders during the possibly long phase jumps, good guesswork would be crucial).

TEC or Advent *needs* ways to knock out fortified systems, because they don't really have a choice if the map has chokepoints -- they have to go through if they're going to go at all.  Vasari can hit elsewhere in order to force a more dispersed defense and to make the eventual necessary attrition more acceptable.  Why else would you think the Kostura got the Phase Gate ability?

 

People have said it before, but simply attacking another system (using the Kostura or by using a feint to slip an Antorak by) works fine. He can't possibly have an upgraded starbase at all of them. Get your own starbase built ASAP, get a phase stabilizer on it, and you're in business. Now there are two chokepoints.

There arn't a lot of maps with both single chokepoints and the resources to max-tech anyway. Which are we talking?

PS- Anyone know if the Kostura node ability work on Storm/Gas Giant systems? I don't see any reason that it shouldn't.

 

I'm tired of repeating myself.
- this thread is about destroying Vasari starbases as Vasari. What I said was perfectly on topic. If anything here is off topic, it is your idea of evading the starbase, since that's not what the OP wants to know.
- It is obvious that against fools or people that already lost the game for having insufficient econ or when the choke is easily evadable, there is nothing to say about the Starbase other than - ignore it.
- the only situation that CAN occur where you really WANT that starbase dead is the one I'm describing. That's why I focused on it.

Lastly, the Vasari ability to project power around the map with Kostura/Antorak/PS is more endgame than ANY OTHER TACTIC that could be mentioned by ANYONE about ANY RACE when they have a fortified chokepoint problem.

TEC, Advent and even Vasari in any different matchup require only 2-4 Military labs to establish a decent anti-starbase tactic.
If Kostura is to be mentioned as a mechanic parallel to the TECs direct assault, then Kostura should
- be Tech-level 4 instead of 8, 
- cost 2000 to deploy instead of 8k and
- not require you to have a lvl6 most-useless-cap-in-vasari-arsenal(tm) or Level 5 imperial tech done.

Can't you understand the deal? Vasari are not the most mobile race of all ever since they get to tech level 4, when other races get their starbase busting tricks. Vasari become uber mobile a dozen times later in the game and need a lot more money spent to get to that point.

OR, maybe torpedo cruisers should also require Tech-level 8 research?
I mean, come on - you said yourself that TEC/Advent have to bust through, while Vasari can go around. Up until Vasari get Phase Stabz and Kostura, they are no more mobile than any other race.
So why, oh why, should everyone else be given their tools a dozen tech levels earlier?
hah hah hah?

Kostura Kostura Kostura. I'm sick of it. It's like claiming that Novalith is a perfect counter to early 2-imperial colonization rush with the EGG. Don't you really see that there is a SLIGHT difference between the moment player A gets to colonize 15 worlds and the moment you can get one Novalith? The same is with putting Kostura(tech8)+Phase stabz(tech 5 in the second tree) on par with a Starbase (tech 2 military ;]). 
This comparison is just so absurd that it's no longer fun.

I managed to kill a heavily upgraded starbase by planthing a string of gravity mines directly in line with where I was building my own star base. The enemy starbase took about 5 minutes getting to me with the -700% acceleration and max speed inhibition.

It gave me enough time to upgrade my starbase to level 3 guns and reintegration with 1 upgrade in armor. 30 skavaros enforcers also.