YAMT (Yet another marza thread)

Getting schooled

from Sins Forums

So normally I defend the marza's ridiculous ultimate ability.  You can counter it easily with the appropriate interrupt.  However today I experienced hell.. aka 3 lvl 6+ marzas.  As advent, I only have caps that can counter the marza's ability, and of the two caps that can do it, the only one that ever sees gameplay is the radiance battleship.  Having 3 radiances, in any other scenario, is practically pointless.. other caps are much more useful to the fleet.

 

So it happens I only had 2 radiances at the time.  Now you can say I shouldn't have warped my entire fleet in.. sure this makes sense, except my opponent had a sizable fleet there in addition to the marzas and would (and did) easily kill off my radiances.  However since I brought the fleet along for the ride, I also lost a 1500 fleet point fleet.  and I lost the fleet (the whole thing) before the radiances could even get in range to counter two of the marzas. If I had sent the radiances in alone, yes they would have countered the marzas, but they also would have been dead because of the supporting fleet and the marzas would be ready to fire again in a little over a minute.  Radiances + guardian push?  Perhaps.  Guardian push can be exploited in any number of ways.  Generally the push moves the marzas out of combat range anyway.  Against an unskilled player this would likely break their fleet.. but agaisnt anyone with any small amount of skill this is at best a "soft" counter.

 

Then there is the bomber option.  nope, no go there.  5 carriers and at least 20 flaks were in the defending fleet.

 

So, my argument isn't that the marza alone is overpowered.  It is that multiple marza's are overpowered.  Not only is it moderately difficult to counter, the range on the weapon is greater than the counters, and several marzas firing at once can destroy any number of ships before they can be moved out of range or close enough in range to kill the marzas.  While there is technically a counter to this, I argue the ease with which several level 6 marzas can be obtained far outweighs the difficult and forced counter that must be put into play to stop complete destruction. The marza is versatile and powerful.. the counters necessary to beat it cost as much as the marza, but are far far less useful.  However, they must be obtained in order to have a chance of beating a TEC player who favors the marza.  I'll throw in a comparison between the marza and the advent starbase meteor shower here too.. it does 500 damage to a group of ships and has a significant recharge.  The marza will have killed the entire fleet in the time it takes to recharge the meteor and both can be disabled equally easily.

 

3 marzas with this ability can also clean out an entire upgraded defensive setup (unless there's a starbase there as well) and all supporting structures in range in under a minute. 

 

How to fix this?  Well, I don't generally encourage increasing or decreasing abilities along the same axis (i.e. if firepower is too great, don't decrease it.  You can't ever get quite the right balance doing this and you just end up with minmaxing and boring cookie cutter ships).  Instead, I prefer changing some other facet of combat to create a more nuanced game.  My solution would be to have the marza full stop while firing (this may already happen) and then have a significant cooldown period after the barrage during which movement, weapons fire, and antimatter and shield recharge are halted on the ship.  This would make the TEC player be much more cautious about deployment of the weapon since the marza would be vulnerable for a period after firing, but it wouldn't eliminate the destructive power the marza is known for.  It would also give other races more strategies to counter the marza..

 

Thoughts?

strategy
13,322 views 28 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Stated in previous thread, MB radius is simply huge.  They need to nerf that by at least 15%.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

How to fix this? Well, I don't generally encourage increasing or decreasing abilities along the same axis (i.e. if firepower is too great, don't decrease it. You can't ever get quite the right balance doing this and you just end up with minmaxing and boring cookie cutter ships). Instead, I prefer changing some other facet of combat to create a more nuanced game. My solution would be to have the marza full stop while firing (this may already happen) and then have a significant cooldown period after the barrage during which movement, weapons fire, and antimatter and shield recharge are halted on the ship. This would make the TEC player be much more cautious about deployment of the weapon since the marza would be vulnerable for a period after firing, but it wouldn't eliminate the destructive power the marza is known for. It would also give other races more strategies to counter the marza..
End of quote

 

eh, I dont think this would work too greatly, because if a marza gets to the point where they finish a missile barrage, the enemy fleet would more than likely be in too bad a shape to do anything about the now helpless marza. factor in the marza's supporting fleet, and there isnt much you can do about it.

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Cool down time is already 240 (i.e. 4 minutes)

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

5 Carriers only? Flak aren't that helpful against bombers. How many bombers did you have? Sounds like you charged him and he premptively activated MB? Perhaps you could have Guardians and trick him into activating MB and then run away? Haha, three lvl 6 Marzas  :D . Yeah, the more Marza's with Missile Barrage, the worse things get. 16 lvl 10 Marzas  o_O now that would be something (2400 damage per wave). Even 16 Radiances aren't going to be able to stop that. Maybe Marza's are how the TEC are going to defeat the Advent and Vasari.

Yep, MB is channeling and thus halts the Marza in its tracks. I like your idea of making the Marza a sitting duck after using MB. Out of curiousity, someone should test this, does the Guardian Push stop a Missile Barrage? I know that the push can interfere with phase jumps so is it an interrupt?

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Yep, MB is channeling and thus halts the Marza in its tracks. I like your idea of making the Marza a sitting duck after using MB. Out of curiousity, someone should test this, does the Guardian Push stop a Missile Barrage? I know that the push can interfere with phase jumps so is it an interrupt?
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Push does not interfere with a phasejump that is already loading. You'll see their blue loading thingy moving with them and it'll keep progressing but they can't start loading it when pushed as they aren't halted yet. As far as I know push doesn't interfere with MB but never tested it. I think the marza will just sit there and keep firing unaffected by the push.

I do remember a case where I tried too push an egg away while draining and it failed. Could be a bug in my memory though. So if it doesn't interupt the egg it won't interupt the marza.

Grtz,
[_]-Flipkik

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I don't think Marza needs is nerf.

Marza ist overpowered because it has no good counter. It REALLY NEEDS a good counter.

One possible counter would be:

Give a cap ship a AoE shield ability, reducing damage by 33%-50%-66% for 15 sec, 120 sec cooldown or something like this. There are lots of Advent and Vasari cap ships with nearly useless abilities to exchange.

 

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Yeah that's why I said don't nerf it.  Also reducing damage falls along the "damage" axis of strategy and thus I wouldn't suggest it (it only creates other balance problems).  Any solution has to fall outside of the damage axis.  Other forms of direct counter would work, as would extending the range on existing counters (possibly making them less effective at distance?).  I wouldn't want to make the counter too effective though... my real problem isn't that the marza is good, nor that its particularly hard to counter.. just that the cost (time, preparation, credit and mineral) of the counter isn't proportional to the ease with which the marza can destroy, and the more marzas you through into the mix the more ridiculous this gets.

Adjusting the existing counters only marginally addresses this since, for an advent player, it means you still need at least one radiance per marza.  Theoretically you could bait and switch using a small sacrificial fleet to get the opponent to barrage.  A moderately smart player will save the barrage for the main fleet, especially when he doesn't rely solely on the marzas and has a supporting fleet that in all likelyhood can trash the sacrificial fleet by itself.  I actually really like the idea of having guardians repel missiles with the push ability.  There would have to be some balancing to make it not a cheat though, and the vasari would still need some equivalent counter (don't play vasari much so I'm not entirely up to speed on their counters).  Giving the domina subjugator an ability to direct fire back at its source would also be lovely!

 

Out of curiousity, can anyone aff the top of their heads think of any similar abilities that can stack?  Can two progenitors stack their shield boost?  Two halcyons stack the fire rate increase?  If these things stacked the marza wouldn't be nearly as overpowered as I could use 2 or 3 progens and simply shield boost through the barrage.  Of course, this would be way overpowered in almost any other situation.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Radiance only? what about that ship that sends capitals snoozing for eternitys?

Besides, being advent, not going for massed bombers when you know you will face several fleetkillers is just... yknow... stupid.

 

as far as vasari go: a single marauder can disable all marzas before their mb does too much damage.  yay for short cooldown.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Marza ist overpowered because it has no good counter.
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Of course not. It's overpowered because failing to counter it will unilaterally wipe you from the map. Making more counters will never change that.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Pretty much all damage abilities stack (Flak Burst, Rail Gun, Radiation Bomb, PMS, etc.)

It's only abilities that give stat benefits that don't stack.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

What if you broke your fleet into two fleets, a decoy fleet and a main fleet.  Phase jump the decoy fleet, and then maybe 1 minute later, send in the main fleet.  He'd probably blow his MB load at your decoys and then the cavalry would arrive to clean house.

 

**I know this is Sins noob 101 tactics here...I'm new to the game** :)

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

The best you can do to counter the Marza's would be Bombers. Obviously you'll need many Fighters to counter their Fighters and clear out the support ships, but the Marza's only defense against Bombers are one Strike Craft. A primarily Carrier fleet, especially with Advent, is the best way to counter them.

Also, you can try to simply exhaust their antimatter supplies. By constantly retreating from neutral worlds, you can try to keep the enemy on the chase, eventually depleting their antimatter for a counter attack.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

As a fan of the MB I hate to see it get a nerf axe. But I also understand its crazy powerful if used right. Maybe it best to limit the number of ships it could hit. Something like Cleansing Brilance. That way you could out flank it. Still crazy good but limits the damage if you move your fleet. And if you go that route, then a reduced cooldown time to 2 mins. That way maybe if the Marza can survive it can get another round off.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

As advent there are several things you could have done.

 

Mainly overpowered his airforce of 5 carriers with your own, 20 flaks won't cut it against Advent bombers. Other options? Revelation Battlecruiser has a disable ability that is quite powerful even at lvl 1. You could send in a fleet of fake illuminators to draw out the MB. Personally I would have built 2 revelations to disable the Marzas straight away, then you take down his support fleet and bear down on the marzas with bombers and caps. Surround them once you know they either dont have enough AM to cast MB or it has been disabled during use. And if they try to get away, use your revelation to stop them and surround them again.

 

Truth is it's not actually that easy to get 3 lvl 6 marzas, at least not secretly. Knowledge is you best weapon, learn what your opponent has or is trying to get, and build the appropriate counters. Against 3 Marzas as advent, you're going to need a Radiance and at least 1 Revelation (2 recommended), plus bombers and fighters. You shouldn't be facing 3 lvl 6 marzas without 3 formidable cap ships of your own.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

As advent there are several things you could have done.
End of quote

As Vasari, there is very little that you can do. You can get a Marauder, but that is rarely useful and if the TEC player has a couple of Akkans, then its even harder.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting JuleTron, reply 15

As Vasari, there is very little that you can do. You can get a Marauder, but that is rarely useful and if the TEC player has a couple of Akkans, then its even harder.
End of JuleTron's quote

If you are Vasari, cant you just have a couple of subverters ready and use Distortion Field to interrupt his casting of MB? I realize that the range of the ability is 4000km shorter but if you make sure your subverter is accelerating towards Marza before its in range, it should survive untill it phase jumps. I havent tried this because I have only played agains AI 'till now cause I dont feel like I'm good enough to enter the MP arena just yet But i generally use Subverters in my fleet agains the AI it usually works wonders. Wouldnt it help agains the Marza too..? Or doesn't that ability work agains caps..?

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Saenon, reply 16

Quoting JuleTron, reply 15
As Vasari, there is very little that you can do. You can get a Marauder, but that is rarely useful and if the TEC player has a couple of Akkans, then its even harder.

If you are Vasari, cant you just have a couple of subverters ready and use Distortion Field to interrupt his casting of MB? I realize that the range of the ability is 4000km shorter but if you make sure your subverter is accelerating towards Marza before its in range, it should survive untill it phase jumps. I havent tried this because I have only played agains AI 'till now cause I dont feel like I'm good enough to enter the MP arena just yet But i generally use Subverters in my fleet agains the AI it usually works wonders. Wouldnt it help agains the Marza too..? Or doesn't that ability work agains caps..?
End of Saenon's quote

 

The subverter doesn't work against caps anymore.  It used to in the earlier versions... I remember one game where the AI used like 15+ of those on me.  Good God that was an awful slaughter.  I had 25 phase missle launchers + my fleet which composed of an egg+ 45 assailants and 20+ Skirmishes.  All those subverters hit my fleet like a wall and froze over 60% of my fleet.  Since there were many of the buggers... I couldn't even retreat.  Glad they don't effect capital ships anymore, but they're still powerful.  Seems the marza is particulary effective combatting vasari as it's a ship that almost forces an opponent to invest in another cap ship.  Maybe they'd consider adjusting disruptive strikes for the Kortul.  Perhaps instead of getting a chance to drain anti-matter, it instead disrupted abilities.  That could be quite crippling vs certain ships like the Progenitor and the Marza.  Does interuppting subverters break their disrption ability?

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting garv222, reply 17


Maybe they'd consider adjusting disruptive strikes for the Kortul.  Perhaps instead of getting a chance to drain anti-matter, it instead disrupted abilities.  That could be quite crippling vs certain ships like the Progenitor and the Marza. 
End of garv222's quote

That sounds like an awesome addition for that ability to me, because in the long run, agains instant cast abilities of different caps, i feel like constantly draining their antimatter is better than having a chance for interrupting a channeled ability, as there are very few of those. But I think this should maybe reduce the proc chance, or increase a hidden cooldown if there are any. I dont know. I just love Vasari and dont wanna nerf them in a fairly useful ability for a buff at something very situationally useful...

Quoting garv222, reply 17

 Does interuppting subverters break their disrption ability?
End of garv222's quote

Im not quite sure what you mean here... Im pretty sure disruption is an instant cast ability put on enemy frigates, which will linger for 60 sec even if the subverter is alive, dead, phased out or whatever. So by interrupting the subverter after it has cast disruption you wouldnt achieve anything but keep it from doing anything more for the next 30 sec.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

As Vasari, there is very little that you can do. You can get a Marauder, but that is rarely useful and if the TEC player has a couple of Akkans, then its even harder.
End of quote

So vasari have 1 less option (Marauder being the only disabler). Doesn't mean they're that much less effective. With the Akkans, it would mean the opponent has 4 or 5 caps, which means you should have 4 or 5 caps, if you don't then its obvious your opponent has an edge. 2 extra Akkans will make it a little harder, but if you've got even 3 Marauders you're ok. Or how bout 2 Marauders and 3 Kortuls. or 3 eggs. The list can go on, but the advantage your opponent gains by having more cap ships should be countered by your own cap ships.

The thing about the Marza is it i the ONLY ship in the game that can destroy a large fleet by itself. Thatt doesn't mean its OP necessarily, just means you have to STRATEGIZE a little more against it than other caps.

Don't forget about LF abilities either.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Giving Disruptive Strikes the chance to interrupt abilities sounds great.

 

So vasari have 1 less option (Marauder being the only disabler). Doesn't mean they're that much less effective. With the Akkans, it would mean the opponent has 4 or 5 caps, which means you should have 4 or 5 caps, if you don't then its obvious your opponent has an edge. 2 extra Akkans will make it a little harder, but if you've got even 3 Marauders you're ok. Or how bout 2 Marauders and 3 Kortuls. or 3 eggs.
End of quote

Having so many Marauders is a waste because then you wont have the slots for more useful cap ships available.

 

The thing about the Marza is it i the ONLY ship in the game that can destroy a large fleet by itself. Thatt doesn't mean its OP necessarily, just means you have to STRATEGIZE a little more against it than other caps.
End of quote

Of course it is OP. The opponent has to strategise, but the MB user DOES NOT need to do anything other then click a button. There is NO skill, strategy, tactics etc. involved with using MB. Thats why it is imbalanced.

 

 

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

Of course it is OP. The opponent has to strategise, but the MB user DOES NOT need to do anything other then click a button. There is NO skill, strategy, tactics etc. involved with using MB. Thats why it is imbalanced.
End of quote

 

I disagree.  The marza alone or even with a supporting fleet isn't overpowered, because the counter to one marza is quite easy for any race.  I think the real problem is that the damage from multiple marzas stacks, and countering multiple marzas requires an equal number of counter cap ships be built and a significant increase in the amount of microing necessary to counter all marzas before they rip you apart.  Yes, it is also possible to have a large carrier fleet and use that to destroy the marzas, but I believe my point still stands that countering multiple marzas requires an excessive amount of very specific counter-ship production.

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

the gamer's fallacy - just because something is counterable, that doesn't mean it's balanced...

a heavily nerfed missile barrage would still occupy the same place in the counter scheme, and it would still be a very powerful ability. 

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

Having so many Marauders is a waste because then you wont have the slots for more useful cap ships available.
End of quote

Its not a waste if you're countering an opponents strategy. If you don't need them, don;t use them, but against a couple of Marzas you will need them.

Of course it is OP. The opponent has to strategise, buof Marzas you need them!An opponent does have to strategize if oyu use the counterst the MB user DOES NOT need to do anything other then click a button. There is NO skill, strategy, tactics etc. involved with using MB. Thats why it is imbalanced.
End of quote

Your opponent WILL be forced to strategize if you use the counter to the Marza, just like an LRM spammer will have to strategize if his opponent has the counter, or a Carrier spammer will have to strategize..

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

A MB user does not need to strategise because if MB gets countered, then he loses nothing. A spammer loses his fleet if he gets countered. Countering MB does not hurt the other player.

The marza alone or even with a supporting fleet isn't overpowered, because the counter to one marza is quite easy for any race.
End of quote

That is not the problem. The problem is that if you don't counter MB then you will pay a rediculously high price for your mistake.

I believe my point still stands that countering multiple marzas requires an excessive amount of very specific counter-ship production.
End of quote

Exactly.

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

A MB user does not need to strategise because if MB gets countered, then he loses nothing. A spammer loses his fleet if he gets countered. Countering MB does not hurt the other player.
End of quote

Im not sure how you can argue that MB is OP because its user loses nothing by being countered. That contradicts itself. A user loses the supposed over powered ability if its countered. I don't think that is equivalent to 'nothing'. Not to mention the user then loses an incredibly valuable capital ship AND, if that player had built their fleet around the protection of the  Marza like many do, the backbone of their now weaker fleet.

Properly countering Dostillevi's 3 Marza problem (including destruction of those ships as with any strategic counter, not just countering MB) would sufficiently cripple the opposing fleet, at least for awhile.

I think the real problem is Options to deal with the Marza, as it does require very specific counters, more so than most other strategies.

Truthfully though this topic has been beaten into the ground. Nobody is really going to change their minds about it. Some people think its OP and some don't. It's just a difference of opinion. If the DEVS are going to nerf it then they're going to nerf it. If not then we'll all just have to live with it.