A question of balance - Capital Ship abilities.

Howdy folks!

I'm asking in here because truth be told, my impression of the community is that the vast majority of Sins players either don't pay attention to the online options, or are multiplayer oriented and have little interest in mods (other than graphical ones)... so if I'm going to ask for the opinions of what people would like to see in a mod, I may as well ask in the modding forum!

However, I'm working on the framework of a mod based on the impression I get about current ship balance (and a decent helping of game theory, which is itself one of my hobbies). I don't aim to radically alter the 'lore' of the game, or even drastically improve the prominence of capital ships - rather, I'm hoping to get things a little more evened out than core currently is, and 'upgrade' some of the lore and thematics of the various ships and techs.

My current focus is on the capital ships*, and their abilities. As it stands though, I notice an awful lot of inconsistency - not in overall power, but in the way in which they 'level'. There seem to be three general systems in play for level of utility**:

1. Sublinear. An ability starts off with a strong first level, then later levels give a smaller incremental bonus. This tends people to, for the initial selections at least, take one rank and then spread later ranks around. Often seen in passive abilities like Incindary Ammunition, or status effect abilities like Magnetize, where the duration starts at 10s, and increases more slowly.

2. Linear. An ability whose points go up something along the lines of 100/200/300. This tends to favor going for max ranks as quickly as possible, as low ranks tend to be rather lacking, and a second rank would outright double the effect - far better use of antimatter than two 1st level abilities used seperately. Commonly seen in damage effects - Radiation Bomb, EMP, and the like tend to do this.

3. Exponential. The ability starts off small, and each rank adds even more than the previous one on top. Much like Linear in effect, but even moreso - you'd be a downright fool to not take this sort of thing to third level if you were taking it at all.

The effects these have on leveling choices are straightforward - if all ability benefits are exponential, then your average level 7 capship would have two trained abilities, one flat out ignored, and their ultimate. If the utility of abilities are all sublinear, then it may increase the chance people view taking a single level in another ability may be worthwhile. However, this comes at the cost that the capitalship won't so dramatically increase in power over the course of its levels, as the abilities 'cap out' faster.  This can be migitated by synergies and the like - if the ships abilties work particuarly well together, or let it excel in several different areas, it may well boost the ships effectiveness anyway, but the point remains.

So my question is - would people favor the general rule of thumb of abilities being sublinear, or linear/exponential in their utility? I have a personal bias towards sublinear - in terms of 'straight ol' bonuses', I'd favor a setup where grabbing a spread of abilities does not automatically*** penalise you against a player who specialised their ship to being a one/two trick pony at the same level, but that's personal preference, and I'd like other peoples opinions on the matter.

Thoughts? 

*   At the immediate current moment, focusing on the TEC, although that means little: I plan to look at each side in turn, but I find it helps to keep balance in check if you limit yourself to only 'global changes' ["All capital ships now consume twinkies"] or 'tweaking one thing at a time'. It just means I tend to use their ships as examples a lot because I've got the spelling of the names better memorised, and have been staring at their .entity files the most recently. ;)

**  This doesn't mean that all exponential bonuses are automatically bad - in some cases, the utility of having the ability at all stands to outstrip the need to improve it afterwards, so it needs to be linear or better in terms of stats in order to stay useful. This is usually the case where the ability grants you the ability to do something new rather than being Ye Olde Bonuses. Example: Being able to use Colonize from a capital ship at all is awesome. Were the bonuses not linear or better, however, you'd probably not bother with later ranks, 'cuz you have combat stuff to worry about first.

*** Of course, I've no problem with a well chosen specialist defeating a jack of all trades - my bias is against a specialist of any kind being 'required' to remain effective.

8,689 views 11 replies
Reply #1 Top

The way you group different cap ship abilities is interesting. I've never looked at it like that. However, I don't that this is a problem. I think that its good as it increases variety.

 

So my question is - would people favor the general rule of thumb of abilities being sublinear, or linear/exponential in their utility?
End of quote

I think each have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages. "Sublinear" abilities are obviously better early game and levelling them up is less important.

Reply #2 Top

Based on your classifications, currently the abilities of capships fall under a mix of all three categories, which ( as you pointed out, of course ), leads to some being leveled as quickly as possible ( Progen. Mothership Colonize is one of the most obvious to me ) and others being either ignored because of opportunity costs or taken at level 1.

 

What I'd really like to see is for cap ships to become like starbases, in that there are vastly more upgrades than there are points to spend them on. I realize that this is a hardcoded limitation, though ( I think ), so to answer your question, personally I'd lean towards abilities scaling linearly, or perhaps exponentially on a shallow curve. It would help distinguish high level caps from low level ones, though I'd like to see it be slightly more difficult to level caps past 6 ( I realize that from 1-6 needs to be fairly trivial for long games with the potential for multiple caps ). That way, having much more powerful abilities is payment for the effort it took to level the cap.

 

Obviously everyone is going to have different opinions, so that's just my take on the matter. I personally enjoy caps and their contribution to the fleet a lot, and I think a lot more could be done with them.

Reply #3 Top

i agree with Juletron . . . it's how you decide your early/mid/late/end game.  And late in the game, lvl 6 or later for a ship, it really doesn't matter that some are sublinear, since they're free. 

 

***edit*** And what does this really have to do with balance?

Reply #4 Top

Quoting traukanshaku, reply 2
Based on your classifications, currently the abilities of capships fall under a mix of all three categories, which ( as you pointed out, of course ), leads to some being leveled as quickly as possible ( Progen. Mothership Colonize is one of the most obvious to me ) and others being either ignored because of opportunity costs or taken at level 1.

 

What I'd really like to see is for cap ships to become like starbases, in that there are vastly more upgrades than there are points to spend them on. I realize that this is a hardcoded limitation, though ( I think ), so to answer your question, personally I'd lean towards abilities scaling linearly, or perhaps exponentially on a shallow curve. It would help distinguish high level caps from low level ones, though I'd like to see it be slightly more difficult to level caps past 6 ( I realize that from 1-6 needs to be fairly trivial for long games with the potential for multiple caps ). That way, having much more powerful abilities is payment for the effort it took to level the cap.

 

Obviously everyone is going to have different opinions, so that's just my take on the matter. I personally enjoy caps and their contribution to the fleet a lot, and I think a lot more could be done with them.
End of traukanshaku's quote

Aye, if I could have more ability options than I have total slots, it'd be lovely. Alas, I don't, so I can't, so I won't. ;)

The disadvantage of scaling exponential, of course, is that it doesn't reward high level ships insomuch as lead to specialisation in low level ones - it means every 5th level ship will have 3 ranks in one ability, and 2 in the other - and unless it's cheap, noncombat, or suchlike, they won't use the second until it's fully complete as well. Whether or not it ends up with a more powerful capital ship overall is simply a matter of numbers; but you're right in that a sublinear balancing means that a low level specialist can face off against a high level craft more effectively than exponentials can - being a couple levels behind is less likely to see you blown out of the water. Whether this is a good thing or bad is up to you. :)

 

Quoting Vespucci, reply 3
i agree with Juletron . . . it's how you decide your early/mid/late/end game.  And late in the game, lvl 6 or later for a ship, it really doesn't matter that some are sublinear, since they're free. 

 

***edit*** And what does this really have to do with balance?
End of Vespucci's quote

You're quite right it's how you determine your early/mid/late game - as it stands, half the abilities do not match up to  one another, leaving you with very clear 'choices' between one or two configurations for your ships at the moment. I'd seek to change that, so that the ships have more varied and viable options avalable - the real question is whether it is preferable to have abilities that reward (to the point of require) you to max out an ability as quickly as possible (exponential), vs the idea of having the ability being more importaint than instantly racing for maximum ranks (sublinear) - one leaves you with "Here are three abilities, pick two - you'll get the third at 8th level+", the other leaves you with "Here, have a jack of all trades. Which aspect would you prefer to have a strength in?"

As for what this has to do with balance - as traukanshaku noted, some abilities are taken instantly to maximum ranks, others (Like Akkans Colonize) have a habit of having only one rank taken in and then nothing more, and others are simply avoided altogether due to the opportunity cost it takes to make them useful (if it's no good till you have three ranks in it, will you bother leveling it for your first six levels?). As such, it's clear abilities need tweaking. And as part of that, it's good to have a baseline goal - Jack of All Trades vs the One Trick Pony.

... that is unless you were wondering why I chose the word 'balance' to start with, at which point I'll, uh, explain the term next post. :-"

Reply #5 Top

Just a thought on what traunkanshaku said above with more abilities than slots available. In Guild Wars, only a handful of hundreds of abilities can be selected for any one "mission", but once done, those can be changed out to any other set of 8 that the player wants.

It would be nice to see hundreds more abilities available, and have the player choose those and slot them into their ships before a game, then start the game and play them. It would add greater variety and difference, and would also mean going in that a player could tailor there playstyle to a economy, damage, or research. It could lead to some very very interesting games.

Certain combinations might not play well against one another, one clearly having an advantage. But some might play more closely making the micro or the decisions of the players the edge in the game.

A simple gui of available abilities and the available slots for the ships could be made and used like the current research screens, only called from just before starting the game.  :)

I think it would be grand!!!

-Teal

 

Reply #6 Top

That's an... interesting concept. Hmn. It could also be done, if one programmed a parser to edit .entity files and the like.

It'd be a completely different style of game, rather than a reworked version, and balance would be exceedingly hard, however. Worst of all, you'd be completely unable to play Multiplayer with it, because two different ability sets would show up as incompatable files. :(

So an interesting idea, but probably not a very viable one.

Reply #7 Top

:)  Why couldn't MP be played with it?  And i dont think Balance has to be hard. Yes, some combinations are going to rule, and others may take more subtlety to play, but it might mix up the game in that out right domination doesnt have to be the only way to win. It isnt the only way to win right now with the game as it is, but i just thought the capability to slot abilities into your ships could really make things interesting.

In MP it might be that one team member is all damage, and another all research, the damage player taking all the up front hits and battles, while the researcher player gets all the added perks that allow for taking over planets and holding them easier.

Same in SP except i suppose you wouldnt have to have a team member, you could just play it one v one, or whatever you want.

 

-Teal

 

 

Reply #8 Top

teal the problem with your suggestion for miltiplayer is the differing checksums for differing entitys

harpo

 

Reply #9 Top

Quoting harpo99999, reply 8
teal the problem with your suggestion for miltiplayer is the differing checksums for differing entitys

harpo 
End of harpo99999's quote

Precisely. Multiplayer requires both players to have absolutely identical files on each copy of the game, otherwise different computers would be calculating different things with the same information... and that would be, y'know, a wee tad catastrophic. :)

Reply #10 Top

This is an interesting discussion, given that I just did a massive re-balancing exercise of my new Alliance/Empire races against the existing Tech/Advent/Vasari races.

I would probably be more inclined toward Exponential.

I like the idea of specialization/experience in capital ship's chosen abilities. You could face a capital ship carrier with very strong regen abiliies... and then another one that has very strong strike craft. It adds a big random element to the game and encourages people to have 2 capitals of the same kind but tweaked in different ways.

I think you should be rewarded for investing deeper into a "tree".

My two pence anyway!

 

Reply #11 Top

That's an interesting thought - though it leaves a capital ship as being more 'super cruiser' and less 'pride of the fleet' by dint of being a specialist rather than a versatile platform. At the same time, this is perhaps not all bad, but does make balancing abilities harder - you have to make sure that all three abilities really are worth it, or only two will ever be touched till past 7th.