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Lums are FUBAR (Very broken) Part 2

strategy
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JohnJames
EadTaes
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #51 June 25, 2009 1:29:37 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Increases from 1.03 to 1.04 and from 1.05 to 1.1

Those were the onyl chnages to lums I could find. Been digging in the changelogs.

Sot he changes in 1.1 were the last changes made to lums. So they are the current day lums.

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JohnJames
EadTaes
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Reply #52 June 25, 2009 1:32:41 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

double post slow forums

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JohnJames
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
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Reply #53 June 25, 2009 10:29:30 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The only thing they need to do is increase fighter hp and return build rates to 1.02.LRF are not suppose to counter each other so the real problem is fighters. Make fighters a viable counter and ilums are fine just like they were before.LRF are used against lf and caps.

I have done some limited testing and raising hp seems to work well.Fighters are supressable but stay alive long enuf to kil lrf.Yes adjust the kols flak burst and tk push to do the same damage but other then that fighters would be fixed.Bombers would still work because you could stop fighters.Flak would still be useful because they still kill sc and damage other ships. Problem solved.

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JohnJames
Raging Amish
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Reply #54 June 25, 2009 10:54:32 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The first buff was done because Advent didn't have an antimedium ship. What was wierd was Advent could easily be light firgate rushed and there was nothing you as an Advent could do about it. Your best option to fight a light frigate rush was disciples, and then your opponent would just bring in his lrms/assailants and maul you.

The first buff was desperately needed. It was really wierd when Illums did capital ships damage. The increase in damage was to offset the loss in damage multipliers. They overdid it though and nerfed it in 1.1.

Personally, I liked Illums when they did 33% damage from each beam instead of now where it's 20% for the sides and 60% for the front.

Of course, you must know, the Illum HAD to be buffed. LRM rushing and Assailant rushes absolutely crushed any advent player. There just wasn't much you could do. One guy called [Magog]Kruelgor proposed using disciples to counter LRMS........claimed you could outnumber then heavily. That's how outlandish and frustrating it was for Advent on rush maps. Now, Kruelgor was an extreme. I lived off of HC's back in those days. The destra and OP repulse in general saved Advent.

I dunno. Advent was really hard to figure out back then cause so few people played them and bothered to try. Newbs cried that they sucked, and the devs saw people weren't playing as them (myself not included, I loved the capital ships damage on the Illum personally). So, the Illum got buffed, but then it was OVERKILL. Carriers used to be 7-8 ship slots and supported one squad of fighters/bombers. Flak wasn't as strong then, so fighters did the job efficiently enough, but the devs were logical and saw the Illum needed a bit of a nerf.

Personally, I say the only race screwed by the Illum is Vasari. When you're best option as Vasari to counter a type of ship spam is to make flak (not scouts, too weak, not assailants=illum food, HC's too expensive early, LF's? LOL, fighters= flak food), the game has a problem. Not a complete break "Game is broken" type of problem, but something that desperately needs to be addressed.

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JohnJames
EadTaes
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Reply #55 June 25, 2009 11:37:21 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh I do agree with the changing from Capital to Anti medium I never had any problems with that. What I always had a problem with was the huge damage bost and the huge HP bost. And since that day they only slighly reduced damage but as well they rebalance planet income as well. Witch only bosted advent. IT's time they eitehr cut back the HP or increase the cost. I think cutting back the HP would be more logical since ti would give incentive for advent to use HC.

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JohnJames
JohnJames
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Reply #56 June 25, 2009 12:22:44 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

LOL [Magog]Kruelgor.  I remember him saying that.  He said that with enough diciples you can counter lrms. LOL

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JohnJames
Cykur
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Reply #57 June 25, 2009 1:48:58 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

LOL [Magog]Kruelgor. I remember him saying that. He said that with enough diciples you can counter lrms. LOL

 

He recanted his evil blasphemies after fighting a couple people who could play.

 

Personally, I say the only race screwed by the Illum is Vasari. When you're best option as Vasari to counter a type of ship spam is to make flak (not scouts, too weak, not assailants=illum food, HC's too expensive early, LF's? LOL, fighters= flak food), the game has a problem. Not a complete break "Game is broken" type of problem, but something that desperately needs to be addressed.

It only works for Vasari when they have lots of 'roids to get a headstart with....otherwise life is full of hurt and misery.

 

The first buff was done because Advent didn't have an antimedium ship. What was wierd was Advent could easily be light firgate rushed and there was nothing you as an Advent could do about it. Your best option to fight a light frigate rush was disciples, and then your opponent would just bring in his lrms/assailants and maul you.

 

Aaahhh...the good old days.

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JohnJames
JohnJames
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Reply #58 June 25, 2009 2:50:21 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

lol yeah change the damage back to anti cap!!!

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JohnJames
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #59 June 25, 2009 3:21:14 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hell. While we're at it. Get rid of quick start. I liked the game better when quick start wasn't there. Quick start makes rushing TOO easy.

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JohnJames
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Reply #60 June 25, 2009 3:28:09 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I agree with Amish. Quick start also only helps to nerf TECs small early econ upgrades. Favors Advent progen colonising thou.

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JohnJames
Cykur
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Reply #61 June 25, 2009 6:13:03 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Actually, Quickstart nerfs Vasari the most because in the old days Vasari could already have additional income from roids while people were still trying to afford their labs.  Quickstart allows TEC and Advent to rapidly get their military or economic foundations up. 

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JohnJames
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Reply #62 June 25, 2009 7:05:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Raging Amish,
reply 9
Hell. While we're at it. Get rid of quick start. I liked the game better when quick start wasn't there. Quick start makes rushing TOO easy.

 

Amazingly enough, you can get rid of it.  It's completely optional.

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JohnJames
Astax
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Reply #63 June 29, 2009 6:39:03 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I was not suprised by this. Long I have known the true power of Illums in 1.02.  Just that people could always use carriers, and only those who would try to fight LRF vs LRF would get burned.  You should know after few games online that you just cannot go LRF vs LRF when Advent is involved.  Weather or not this is right, that's a matter of semantics and dev intentions.

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JohnJames
Pupetier
Join Date 10/2009
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Reply #64 February 2, 2010 10:01:30 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I assume all this talk goes at the account of early game.

 

In case of TEC vs Advent early rush and game strategy all talk about Prog colonizer ability is easily countered by TEC carrier embargo which effectively destroys Advents econ and boost TEC. That gives u time to build fleet that is capable of destroying all those ilums he was able to build.

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JohnJames
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #65 February 2, 2010 8:13:14 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

In case of TEC vs Advent early rush and game strategy all talk about Prog colonizer ability is easily countered by TEC carrier embargo which effectively destroys Advents econ and boost TEC. That gives u time to build fleet that is capable of destroying all those ilums he was able to build.

The original post was made prior to 1.18.  If you tried an embargo rush back then, you'd have been crushed.  The Sova had negligable combat utility back then, so you really only needed to throw enough frigates at it and you'd drive it off easily, and then the TEC player is in big trouble since they really depended on Marza in previous versions.

 

These days, you can fight off smaller groups of illuminators by slamming them with fighters deployed by carrier caps and trying to whittle away their numbers.  This is your best course of action if you're caught in a close-combat situation against Advent.  Unfortunately, if the illums build up to considerable numbers it just becomes impossible to counter them.

 

Personally I've been trying to run heavy-cruiser based strategies lately, and time and time again I find that they just don't work in large fleet battles, and every faction is better off spamming their LRF.  Heavies have great hull points and everything, but their damage output per cost just doesn't come close to what any of the LRF offer, and since LRF give you better range and are much easier on the labs, it's a no-brainer.

Illums just so happen to have a triple-whammy in their favour.  They are the most powerful class of unit in the game, they are the most powerful of their class, and they have a bug that causes them to deal additional damage.

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JohnJames
Cykur
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Reply #66 February 2, 2010 8:29:27 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Illums just so happen to have a triple-whammy in their favour. They are the most powerful class of unit in the game, they are the most powerful of their class, and they have a bug that causes them to deal additional damage.

And to add insult to injury, they belong to the race that has the most effective counters to the natural enemies of the Illuminator.  (Halcyon TK Push vs fighters & Repulse vs HC).

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JohnJames
superkleenex
Join Date 07/2009
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Reply #67 February 3, 2010 2:16:37 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Cykur,
reply 66

Illums just so happen to have a triple-whammy in their favour. They are the most powerful class of unit in the game, they are the most powerful of their class, and they have a bug that causes them to deal additional damage.
And to add insult to injury, they belong to the race that has the most effective counters to the natural enemies of the Illuminator.  (Halcyon TK Push vs fighters & Repulse vs HC).

don't forget that they have 3 SC groups per carrier   (at least in vanilla)

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JohnJames
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #68 February 3, 2010 3:08:07 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

That's not a big deal; cost per squad is roughly the same for each faction, and if anything the Vasari have an advantage once they get some phase missile research done.

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JohnJames
DarkFour
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #69 February 3, 2010 4:15:56 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

obviously lrm's and assailants are not good counters. try strike craft?

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JohnJames
Swordoflight86
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #70 February 4, 2010 12:18:35 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

My usual counter to long range frigate spamming is to have a gaurdian use shield projection to tank for a radiance battleship using animosity. the entire fleet targets my battleship while my flet pound theirs into space junk. Granted a sufficiently skilled player( and ive come across plenty, but not as many as ive expected) will have a counter handy(which is to say he will have some ships in reserve that aren't lrf's.). But still, i find myself annoyed by the one dimensional fleets in this game. thats part of the reason I stopped playing starcraft.

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JohnJames
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #71 February 4, 2010 2:45:37 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

My usual counter to long range frigate spamming is to have a gaurdian use shield projection to tank for a radiance battleship using animosity. the entire fleet targets my battleship while my flet pound theirs into space junk

Then the opponent doesn't have enough long range frigates.  If you didn't have a Progenitor restoring its shields, long range frigates should have minced your lone radiance before you could react.

Also, animosity is useless in multiplayer, since its effect can be ended by just ordering the affected units to attack something else.  Moreover, people almost never actually want to have their capital ships attacked.  Particularly against long range frigates and bombers, they go down way too fast.

 

thats part of the reason I stopped playing starcraft.

Virtually every RTS, man.  Advent notwithstanding, I thought 1.181 Sins was among the best games in that manner.

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JohnJames
Swordoflight86
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #72 February 4, 2010 7:15:26 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 71

My usual counter to long range frigate spamming is to have a gaurdian use shield projection to tank for a radiance battleship using animosity. the entire fleet targets my battleship while my flet pound theirs into space junk


Then the opponent doesn't have enough long range frigates.  If you didn't have a Progenitor restoring its shields, long range frigates should have minced your lone radiance before you could react.

Also, animosity is useless in multiplayer, since its effect can be ended by just ordering the affected units to attack something else.  Moreover, people almost never actually want to have their capital ships attacked.  Particularly against long range frigates and bombers, they go down way too fast.



thats part of the reason I stopped playing starcraft.


Virtually every RTS, man.  Advent notwithstanding, I thought 1.181 Sins was among the best games in that manner.

 i have limited multiplyer experience(i've played less than ten games online, mostly i play lan vs my bf) so i was not aware of the combos limitations. thank you for pointing them out, i shall now go adjust my tactics.

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JohnJames
Z00MERS
Join Date 02/2009
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Reply #73 February 14, 2010 1:40:34 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Cpt_Siddy,
reply 21
make assilants 30% cheaper, problem sovled.

 

Agreed---cost is too close.  Illums are t3 units, why are they so cheap?  Assailants are t1.

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