Suggestions for the next 2 expansions of Sins

part of what makes SINS so wonderful to such a wide player base is how easy it is to play.  we play on the LAN at home, hours at a time.  my wife loves being able to overwhelm AIs.  if you make the game more complex and say have 2x as many tech tree items, or 2x as many controls for a planet, i promise interest will falter.

the micro expansions are great in that they give people wanting a little bit more, exactly that.  they get a little bit more all around.

1) The problem with more varieties of ships for the same purpose is simple: you end up using one to the exclusion of others.  Already the siege frigate and light frigate have nearly been edged out of existance because capital ships and long range frigates (respectively) can fulfill their role well enough that they're not really necessary.  Any new units should fill entirely new roles and not overlap existing units.

Similarly, I feel more content for the existing capital ships rather than new capital ships would be a better idea.  In most games, you rarely see more than 3 capital ships.  We see all too little of many capital ships as it is.  I'd rather see more diversity and options added to what we currently have.  Perhaps each capital ship could get two new abilities, and a player would have to decide which ones he wanted.

2) I don't see the need for more ships slots.  I almost never hit the 2000 limit as it is, and there already exists a "large" fleet size game option.  I similarly have never seriously used a fleet with 16 capital ships.  Oh, sure, I might build them for kicks in the late-game, but I've never actually been in a situation where I've actually had a use for more than eight.

3) some more utility with planet upgrades would be nice.

4) the tech tree is already large enough.  I see absolutely no need to expand it, since it's very rare to actually finish it as it is.

5) A better AI would be nice.   The AI is in a completely sad state right now where it will happily kamikaze on a starbase that's far beyond its ability to defeat and then look stupid when I mop up its empire which is defended by nothing but worthless siege frigates that it can't use because I put up one little hanger in the world it wants to attack.

You know when you hit alt or hover over units you can see the circles that represents their weapons range? Why not represent them as pie slices instead? I feel the circles can be improved in this way to encourage better micromanagement of fleets. You could represent their weapons damage statistics on the info card in colors and the represent those respective weapons around the ship as pie slices so players could see them and could manage how to use them better( because we all know that most ships cant fire in an area directly behind them.) Some of course would remain complete cricles (like starbases), but their repective weapons ranges could be visible (since they differ). Also, if it seems like a lot of additional calculations would have to be made, and thus slow down the game, you could make it so you only see that on your own ships.

Also to help utilize this you can make it so if you set your fleet on 'hold position' and tell them to move within their firing range they rotate to face that position rather than move towards it (as if you were attacking something).

I feel this could drastically improve the experience in battle and incourage more players to be more invloved with the battles and be rewarded for their focus.

There should be a Story Mode in SINS. The opening movie tells a lot about the game itself, but only from the TEC side. If theres a story mode, it will might also improve interest by giving a history and a future to the sides other than just completely destroying each other's existance. There should be things like the history of a war hero's flagship, and other things such as unit and tech restrctions that are lifted as missions progress, and the general kind of thing you see in most RTS games. To me, these add more depth and an understanding of each faction's and abilities. And cinematics for new games(depending on faction) like the game's opening cinematic would be a nice addition too.

And i also agree that the tech tree and fleet sizes are large enough already, i rarely even use more than 3 fleet upgrades, and only about 2-4 capital ships in 1v1 or 2v2 modes, but i do agree with the diversification of a capital ship's abilities. there should be more ablilities like the starbase does,(Not as many though) since large things generally can do a vast role of many things like adding new weapons, upgrades, etc.

And the idea of a human-thinking AI would be amazing, the AIs now are just basically do what your told in training and almost nothing else other than colonizing, fortifying, and building fleets.

This might be a little extreme, but there also should be more types of Starbases. I know that certain faction's starbases have their own special and unique abilities, but more starbases with their own unique abilities too would make the game a bit harder, and add more diversification in structures, like having one that is basically a massive factory, or just a slow, armored juggernaut. Although having more Starbases would make a possible exclusion of one or the other, but that would make a player determine his strategies differently if something as big as a starbase is built between attacks.

These are my suggestions.

Quote:  1. More variety in ships.

It's easy to request this, but probably much harder for the developers to implement in practice.  Any new unit will create all sorts of unit balance issues that will have to be ironed out.  In practice, the the unit is liable to end up getting used heavily or not at all.  Is there a particular unit type you'd like to see them create?

2. Ability to create much larger fleets - provide an option to have even greater maximum fleet logistic slots (and command slots).

Larger than the Large Fleets option?  I guess it's not such a bad idea.  I don't see how this could really hurt anything as long as the current Small, Normal, and Large sizes remained the same.  It might lead to lag, especially in online multiplayer, but as long as people can choose the current sizes and aren't forced to use the new larger sizes it's not a bad idea; it's always good to have more options.

3. More detail in planetary upgrades/improvements.

This isn't a bad idea.  I'd also like to see a few more planet types become part of the standard game like in the Sins Plus mod.  It seems like something that would be easy to add to the game.
 

4. Greatly expand the technology tree for all factions. Have it encompass more weapons upgrades and weapons research, as well as more ship research and hull/shield upgrades

Not such a bad idea.  Perhaps 10% more shields, armor, and weapons upgrades could be given another increase available at Level 8 so that it's expensive.  Same thing goes for mineral extraction.

5. Make AI play more like a human than a computer. Instead of just making the AI more difficult, make it so that it doesn't make stupid decisions. Follow Galactic Civilizations II's lead with that one, it's developpers did a great job making AI play more like a human than like a computer. Sins' gameplay would be much better with more difficult AI, as many players do not play other players online.

My advice is:

If you feel that the AI needs to play more like a human, if you want a greater strategic challenge, if you want to play intense, suspenseful, competitive, more satisfying and more meaningful games, if you want to see what a team game would be like, then come play the game in online multiplayer.

"The next time we say 'Let's go someplace like Bolivia', let's go to Bolivia!"

Perhaps the AI can be improved, but until sentient AI is developed, AI will never really be a substitute for playing against human players.  The AI can be given numerous advantages to where it is very overpowering, but it's just not as much fun as playing against real people on what feels like a level playing field.  In fact, I have a theory that the single player game and online multiplayer games are essentially two completely separate games because of the differences in the nature of your allies and your opponents as well as game dynamics related to playing with real teammates.

(In single player, if you are getting beaten, you just end the game and start a new one.  In online multiplayer, you personally might be getting beaten but your team could still be winning in which case you have to try to do whatever you can to help your team and occupy your opponents so that it's harder for them to finally take you down, allowing them to focus on the rest of your team, which might involve your migrating to another star or to the middle of the map.  I actually find being in this position, perhaps starting out in a 5v5 wedged between 4 or 5 opponents, to be rather thrilling.  I've seen games where the player in this position essentially won it for his team single-handedly, not because he conquered his nearby opponents, but rather because he didn't go down quietly and was a huge pain-in-the-ass on his way down.  I've also seen them migrate to the middle of the map only to reemerge later in the game as a force to be reckoned with.)

So, what's keeping people from registering an account with Ironclad Online and playing the game in online multiplayer?  This game is awesome for online multiplayer!  Contrary to popular belief, most games don't last much longer than 2 hours because once the outcome has been decided, players on the losing team say "gg" (good game) and quit.  (When the last opponent quits or surrenders, the victory screen pops up.)

So, come join the fun!  You can even make online friends and you might enjoy the camraderie of having real human allies and being able to play as part of a team, sharing resources and coordinating attacks.  Close friends might even use voice comm chat.  If you're concerned about getting steamrolled by experienced players, you might start out by playing "comp stomps", which is a couple people playing against AI opponents.  I think that's a great way to get started and eventually you'll want to try playing against other people, perhaps in games titled "3v3 New Players".  Note that your best bet for finding newer players is probably in regular Sins and not Entrenchment.  Most people who play the game online regularly have Entrenchment, by the way.

In summary, for a greater challenge, for more suspenseful and intense games, come get online!

Sins is a great game, but it is verypractical. In order to make it an epic game, the practicality must be dropped and replaced with complexity.

I hope that you will seriously consider playing the game in online multiplayer so that you can discover just how complicated the strategic aspects of the game can be.  If you're playing a tight, competitive game against high quality opponents, it can become very challenging and complex.  You'll need to think about everything you do.  Even if you conclude that the best strategy for dealing with your opponent is to just spam out a single type of ship, you still have a great many other factors to consider.

(When should I attack?  Do I need to prepare to defend?  What side of the gravity well should I enter on?  Does it make sense to spend some money to upgrade my planet health?  What research should I be doing?  Do I need to keep colonizing and what ships and how much fleet should I invest in that?  What specific planets should I colonize?  Do I need to feed some credits and/or resources to my ally who is in a fight?  Is he a good investment?  What do I need to do if he goes down and I end up having an exposed flank where he used to be?  Should I build more fighting ships or invest in improving my economy?  Does it make more sense to try to improve my economy or to send my fleet to help my neighboring ally?)

Until we have sentient AI, you just won't find any substitute that compares to playing against real human opponents, so come log onto Ironclad Online and join the fun!  Consider this a cordial invitation to come join the onine multiplayer community and a warm welcome.

One final word...which comments would you rather read:

AI:  Say goodbye to planet Zakanzia!

OR:

Player on Team 1:  Why are the guys on your team chuckling (in the public chat)?  What's so funny?  What are you guys doing over there?  Why haven't you attacked?

Player on Team 2:  Just imagine a giant space penis slowly approaching you from behind.

(Everyone laughs and some cough up the pop they were drinking.)

1. i would like more ships, it could add some more strategy, and make it easier to counter an enemy fleet, because there isnt just 1 counter with a counter of its own etc etc. however, i do like the current simplicity in Sins. so, i would like more ships, but only if the devs can maintain the relative simplicity of how it is now.

2. usually im one for massive fleets. i always max my fleet supply and play on large fleet sizes... however, as it stands, i think most GW's are a little small for anything too much larger...

that said, if the scale in Sins was made a bit more realistic (larger planets etc) and balanced appropriately (increasing the base speed of ships, and maybe adding research to boost speed again) then larger fleets would be good.

alternatively, if people think the current GW/planet size is good, then im happy to have larger fleets to cover more areas of space

3. agreed, but not necessary, after all, its just a graphics enhancement (if i understand you correctly)

4. that depends on what your objective is with the research, if its to do more damage/survive longer in battle, then instead of just adding more research points, just increase the values of whats there already...

if larger fleet sizes would be implemented, it should balance out, but it would have to be a thing looked at carefully for balance.

5. first off, the same people who developed Gal Civ developed Sins, so im guessing there is a good reason the AI isnt as good. also, AI is a hard thing to create. all the suggestions for tactics, the rules, the conditions, auto-casting, tactics, let alone programming in how to make mistakes. i dont think you realise just how much data you as a human collate, interpret, and decide upon SUBCONCIOUSLY, let alone consciously. really, until we can write AI that is all but sentient and aware, AI will never be as good as a human (on the other hand, AI dont talk smack and quit when they loose a few ships =P)

ultimately, yes, it would be good to have better AI, but dont hold out for it, its one of the most difficult things to do so...

what i would like to see is something like shared technologies or reverse engeering on things and this can go on with the with the next expansion as well since its supposed about diplomacy. Or more diversity on worlds i no that alot of people want that and im for it to but i think that the game sould have more choke points and what i mean is that is, like how u would have a string of planets to together to make credit lines have it true for supply lines to. That way u can hit the enemy where it hurts or the AI can attack u and cripple ur fleet so in a sense its like having:credit, metal, crystal and fuel lines, that way it makes the game more challanging in more ways than one. and yes i no that research stations is how u build up ur fleets but if u have 2 desert planets u can fit all of them on those 2 and go on from there. im saying have it research stations and planets so the the AI doesnt just go for big fleets right from the start.

and another thing im for is the idea of a big captial ship and they can be the nightmares for every race but u cant have more than 1 or 2 because then ill everyone would just build those insted of everything else. one more thing i would love to see is a story mode and ive heard thats the third expansion and for that a new race must be introduce before hand and that will fill in the story.

so im for more complexity in the game cause i feel that a game this nice needs to bring in the real complexity of the world and apply them so make a great game even greater. 

 
and another thing im for is the idea of a big captial ship and they can be the nightmares for every race but u cant have more than 1 or 2 because then ill everyone would just build those insted of everything else. one more thing i would love to see is a story mode and ive heard thats the third expansion and for that a new race must be introduce before hand and that will fill in the story.

That is a very good idea. Also, how about being able to board and take control of a enemy starship. That way you would have to be concerned about the enmey taking control of your whole fleet.

Smitty

That would be nice, that way the players wouldnt just send a massive fleet full of juggernauts  to attack, theyd have to assemble a larger fleet. And that way, if you do take over one of their juggernauts, itll cause hell in space for the other ships

And another idea for the big ships(if you make them) is to have more than one kind, like a super-carrier, a massive dreadnaught, and maybe even somehthing like a long range defense buster, but to reach their full effectiveness, they must have some kind of fleet in it, like the normal fleets some people make, or another  super-ship

remember that this is a real time strategy game, where customizable ships would be difficulut to implement.  turn based games make it easy, because in most cases, their is no time limit

dresda, what i ment is having the 2 or 3 weapons that you start with on a cap, and as your ship gets stronger, unlock more weapons, like how the halcyon carrier has only 2 weapons to start, when it reaches lvl 5 or 6, it would get lasers, plasma, and beams, instead of just plasma and beams. So basically your unlocking weapons for your ship at a price, maybe 1000 credits for the new weapon.

flak for caps. i know its been stated before, but these ships are huge, theres no reason they couldnt have some.

especially the carriers, it just makes sense (or at least to me)