Capital Carriers

Keep it up. This is like the twentith

Maybe if I bring my own forum post we will get results

Yeah like Im that special

Twentieth... ???

Whatcha mean "keep it up"? Am I not alone in believing that cap. Carriers are too weak? (Excitement! )

Koda0 (^)

no, hes making a semi-sarcastic post about how someone has brought carrier caps up again.

i created a thread about it here http://forums.impulsedriven.com/357445/page/1

problem with boosting carrier caps is that early game, they are unstoppable. the number of SC they can field quickly is largely uncounterable, and forces you to tech up to flaks and carriers quickly, and makes LRF an endangered species

so the above thread suggests boosting the crap out of carrier caps, but requiring research to build them (like all advanced ship designs atm) so that carriers can be released later game when each side is more prepared to deal with them.

honestly, i agree with you in general, but for the above reasons i dont agree with your recomendations

Correct... Really the only way to fix the problem is to make extra squads researchable in high tiers...  Sure you could make the ship itself researchable, but I don't really like that as it defeats the entire purpose of the Sova...

No I was serious

KEEP

IT

UP

though you do bring up some good points

Hmmm... I guess a Tier 4 Tech. for the extra squads would be OK... but what I would REALLY like to emphasize in my list of "suggestions" is that their abilities affect ALL of the friendly strikecraft in the same Grav. Well, and that they stack.

Koda0 (^)

I dont think the halcyon needs a boost... Its almost always the second advent capital ship... that ablility make illums 22% more overpowered should not be taken lightly.  The vasari could really use a better scramble bombers... and the sova needs to be taken out of that small, smelly, unclean, cage in that dank and dark, basement and given a new, loving and caring home.

Making heavy strike craft an AOE might be a bit too op, not to mention, would not fit to well with the backstories... if sovas are given 9-10 sqads instead of 6 max... it might be more worth while. (although, i did suggest in another thread that a boost to 20%/35%/50% dmg and 2/3.5/5 armor [or so] might be nice if it was balanced with a -5%/-10%/-10% [or so] max speed.... [hey, all that "heavy" weights alot!])

Missle batteries could cost a bit less antimatter per level, say 125/100/75.

Rapid manufacturing should (in addition to instant builds on the sova itself, and 30% build rates for structurs and ships) it should increase strike craft build rate by 30% (so instead of -85% build rate, it would only be -55% build rate) (which, when you consider that that means going from 15% build rate to 45% build rate...  3x is not that bad)

definitely need to fix Sova, definitely

Really, the only way that heavy SC would work as an AoE would be to have it so large that it encompasses the entire gravity well..  The problem there is what happens when two sovas are in the same grav well...

Seriously though, we already have too many threads like this... we need to let some of them die so that others live.  People won't go for an idea that is spammed.  Besides, in the Yay/Nay thread, unless I am mistaken, carriers are covered so I suggest leaving this thread and not coming back...

Well, fine then!

Anyway... all I'm trying to say is that Cap. Carrier abilities are good, yes, but they're kinda useless when your Cap. Carrier only has 6 out of 30-50 squads in your fleet, the bonuses are a little overshadowed by sheer numbers.

Rapid manufacturing should (in addition to instant builds on the sova itself, and 30% build rates for structurs and ships) it should increase strike craft build rate by 30% (so instead of -85% build rate, it would only be -55% build rate) (which, when you consider that that means going from 15% build rate to 45% build rate...  3x is not that bad)

I don't get what you're saying here... that Rapid Manufacturing increases (as in, makes the time to build them longer) the strikecraft build rate, or decreases (as in, makes them build faster) it?

Also, if Heavy SC doesn't have a set range, it just affects the Sova's SC... which I think is a little useless, when compared to the 20 or so other squads you have "flying" around.  I say that it just affects all friendly SC in the same Grav. Well, and that it should stack w/ another Cap. Carriers similar abilities... 

I don't think much else needs to change if this happens right now, Flak, build rate penalty, etc. should balance this.

Koda0 (^)

Uh... you do realize how big of a difference 30% will make if you buff 50 squads...  That is already enough to take out a high level cap in one volley (lest it be a Kol or Halcyon).  You add that massive buff on there and you just nuked the field...  If you make the buffs stack...  Hehehe...  60%/90%/120% damage increase does not equal good...

Anyways, I do like your idea of rapic manufacturing as an "anti-bargo."  And for the record, it increases build rate (actually, it makes them instantly...)

Now, I'm okay with this thread, just so long as it isn't a duplicate.  So long as you are creating original ideas here, I'm okay with this thing's existance...

Oh, ok then .

See, there's the thing, though.  Right now, very few ppl bother w/ carriers. . . most prefer Flak/LRF as of right now. I think that's a little cliche. That, AND most ppl. very rarely bother w/ cap carriers becuz they're so useless.  And, if all you have to defend your fleet from SC is a Halycon or Kol, try investing in Flak or fighters... especially if the fighters are buffed.

Oh, and I guess Stacking those abilities would be a little op... I take that back then.

Koda0 (^)

Yeah... just a bit... you know... only three sovas and three allied halcyons in one grav well... no biggy... just a 90% damage buff and a +9 armor buff...  Nothing special...

Really, I think that if they were to encompass the entire gravity well, The buff must be lessened and must not stack, but rather it goes to the highest value...

Kuda0, What i am trying to say... is that currently carriers have a -85% build peneltiy when combat is going on around them... durring the 45 seconds of rapid manfacturing... that build penelity would only be -55% (or, strike craft would build 30% faster if no combat is going on)

I really dont think the sova needs a buff that affects all strike craft... think about it... just as it is right now...

6 sqauds... with 30% more attack, and 15% more survivablity... thats the damage of almost 8 squads, and the survivablity of 7... ok, so thats not really inpressive... but lets just give the sova 9 squads at lv 10...

9 squads... with 30% more attack, and 15% more survivablity... thats the damage of 11.7 squads, and the survivablity of 10.35... it would take 5.85 carriers carry that same worth of strike craft... thats almost 82 fleet supply with of carriers... and those 5.85 carriers are not cheap either... thats 877.5 metal, 790 crystal, and almost 5000 credits!! If you make your sova your second capital ship... that sova only costs (including research) 4200 credits, 400 metal, and 325 crystal... AND your sova has guns (carriers dont), AND missle batteries, AND embargo... Now, of course you have to do some serious foot work to get your sova to level ten, which is why its prolly ok...

 It kinda shows that heavy strike craft does not have to be AOE to be effective... I mean really... for less credits, 1/2 the metal and crystal... you got 82 fleet supply worth of strike craft... for 50 fleet supply... not that bad... and that sova can regenerate those 82 fleet supply of strike craft instantly for 45 seconds every 90 seconds... In a long battle where the squads of both sides have been decimated to 0-1 strike craft from flack and enemy fighters... the ablity to pump out 9 squads could be battle changing.

Wait, I'm not too sure but I thought the penalty in game was very stupidly shown and it was reverse of what everyone is use to.  Meaning, that 85% wasn't the penalty but the actual rate...so not - 85% but -15% to end up with 85% build rate when enemies in gravity well and like 43% when you under fire.  I can find a link if neeed.

mmm... I am preety sure my carriers are pumping out strike craft alot slower than only -85% of normal... but a link would be nice.... cause while, yes... it says -43% while under fire... it also can sometimes say only -50% when there... i think it is, no capital ships, and no starbases and you outnumber them?

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/354827

The link is the change log.  You want to read this line int he change log:

Carrier's squadron buildrate penalty with enemy units in the gravity well reduced from 25% to 15%.

So, in the gravity well, it is has a penality of 15% which means it is doing 85% its normal.  Since thats the only 85 we see, its safe to assume that either it is 85% production OR it was entered wrong and actually does 15% even though its suppose to be 85%.

oh, ok, you win... instead of 85% normal, using rapid mfg would boost it to 115% normal perhaps?

Maybe, I didn't really read what was being said here, just the part about the 85%.  I would think it does 30% of ht e85% increase, so it would be like 110.5.  Or, when its 43, it could be 55.9...wow, its not that good...but better than nothing.

It seems that in Sins, percentage-based penalties are applied in a special manner. The actual penalty is generally found by 1-[1/(1+P)] where P is the penalty (example, a 40% reduction in cooldown rate translates to a 29.6% reduction in cooldown time). This could mean the carrier penalty is really building at 87% of normal (although that's not much of a difference from 85%).

If this weren't the case, things like Demolition Bots by the Hoshiko (which apply a 200% penalty to both speed and acceleration) would provide really weird results. Replusion, however, doesn't seem to follow this as well as it is 1000% penalty to speed and acceleration, yet the ships aren't brought to a total standstill and are still capable of moving if they aren't moving towards the Guardian casting it.

I'm gonna re-start this argument the best I can:

I think that capital carriers could use a slight BOOST in power, as they're often outshadowed by their cruiser-counterparts.

Changes I would like to see (these might be a little late, but whatevs)

1.: an increase in Amount of maximum squadrons carried from 6 to 9, starting with 2

2.: An increase in build rate and max antimatter limit

3.: better Squadron support abilities. The currents ones give them a slightly bigger chance of surviving in a massive furball, but not enough to make or break a battle.

That's just about it... tell me what you think!

Koda0 (^)

I think each capital carrier has its own unique issues, and they really can't be lumped together in a single category.

The Halcyon is in no way weak or underpowered as a package.  To the contrary; it's one of the game's most powerful.  Its issue is more that it has some very strong skills, and some very weak ones.  Skilled Drone Anima is a piece of shit, as is its ultimate Anima Tempest.  In the same breath, its two other abilities are some of the game's most powerful.  It just needs to be balanced out a bit.

Skirantra is similar to the Halcyon, but not quite as strong.  Its repair cloud ability is one of the game's most powerful.  Aside from that, scramble bombers is absolutely worthless and microphasing aura is situational at best.  Replicate forces is decent.  Its lesser abilities need a buff, but otherwise it's still in great shape due to the powerful repair cloud ability.

Now, the Sova is the only definitively weak carrier capital ship.  Embargo is its only great ability, and even that is difficult to use and situational (though very powerful when used appropriately).  The Sova is a one-trick pony, but it suffers because it's positively useless in combat and costs too much for an auxiliary function.  It's the carrier that needs an all-around buff to make it more competitive.

Sova is complete shite. Totally useless (apart from embargo), I never build it.

If the Sova costs five time what the Percheron costs, then it should have five times the number of squadrons. Anything else and it's just not worth having.

A carrier in any navy is your main strike force, why not make it that?

Why not add squadrons with special abilities for example? So you would have a choice of fighter/bomber/special ability. As to what special ability - maybe jump interference, or a scout, or fast attack. There is so much you could do with a carrier, it seems such a waste.

completely agree with the Sova Comments (poor Sova )

but it can be saved

at Distant Stars we revamped the missile batteries to be more powerful, gave the Sova more SC and made them Elite(being stronger and better than standard) which when combined with Heavy Fighter's buff they are the best around, only the Vasari have better(and only because of phase missiles).

The sova now in our games rocks.

ps and yes the halycon and skirantra got the elite and more sc upgrades

Command-wise it's actually only 3.5 times as expensive, and eventually it does work its way up to 7 squads, plus loads of special abilities.  As well, capital ship carriers don't need to use antimatter to replace strike craft squads.  And this is before we consider it actually has its own attack (if a weak one) and special abilities.

I don't think the problem is strike craft; capital ships have always been weaker than an equivalent cost of fighting frigates, so it stands to reason capital carriers should be less powerful than equivalent cost of carrier cruisers.  They offer special abilities and other subtle advantages to give them the edge.

As I said in the patch poll, I do not believe that increasing the number of strike squads on carrier capital ships is the best way to "fix" them.  They just need to have their weaker special abilities buffed so they are more versatile and practical.  Now, I do think making them max out on strike craft sooner so you don't have to get them to some obscene level would be a good change, so long as their absolute maximum doesn't change.