I agree with Halcyon and Skirantra. But the Sova... I'm going to keep saying it, but the Sova REALLY needs to be an all-around Carrier support. Because really, the Halcyon and Skirantra both are supporting their fleets (And Skirantra's Repair Cloud benefits SC ^_^). But the Sova... Let's just look at it's abilities.

Missile Batteries- Alright, it deploys a mini-LRM, and is actually pretty good when fully upgraded. The main problem with it is that the AM cost is ridiculously high; 125 AM.  This doesn't become a problem later on, but can hurt Sova when in an early-game fight.

Embargo- It's ridiculously situational. Great on small maps, and that's about it. It just gets really annoying how this is supposed to be such an awesome ability, but in practice is barely useful most of the time.

Heavy SC- Worthless. Seriously, Heavy SC fills that niche that every Carrier Cap has; the filler ability no-one uses. Why do all three have them?

Rapid Manufacturing- What. The. Heck. I get my precious Sova Titania to level 6, and THIS is the ultimate ability!? This thing costs 120 AM, and all it does is allow me to essentially just switch between Fighters and Bombers real fast? Oh, and of course that absolutely INCREDIBLE 30% build increase on a planet for a minute. Really, Rapid Manufacturing is very easily the worst level 6 ability.

The main problem with the Sova is like the problem with the Antorak; they aren't fleet supporters. Every other capital benefits their fleet somehow, with the sole exception of these two ships (And maybe the Kortul, but it's bugged and doesn't really count). I do think the Sova would be a far, far better ship is Heavy SC and Rapid Manufacturing boosted all Carriers within a tiny range. That's really all I ask, and would fit with the lore, considering every Sova has two huge manufacturing bays. I just want to see the Sova Carrier, the most beautiful of all the ships, get some sort of use.

Sova's actually only get the six squadrons, and that's only at level 10.

Totally agree; missile batteries need an antimatter cost decrease.

If the Sova were a powerful capital ship overall, embargo would be fine.  Right now you're buying Sova just for embargo, if you get a solid package with embargo then that's another matter entirely.

My thoughts exactly.  These abilities are absolute trash.  Rip them apart and create new ones.

Eh, it's not definitively the worst ultimate.  I'd say it's a three way tie between rapid manufacturing, anima tempest, and disintegration.  All three need some serious help, because you could make them regular skills (non-ultimate) and they'd still be considered average at best.

I totally agree with the Sova/Antorak comparison.  These two very much feel similar, though Antorak overall is definitely the better since it fulfills a disruption role effectively and all of its skills are useful.

Well, I don't exactly see a level 10 Sova every day, and I can tell you it's not because people are complaining about being short one squad of strike craft.

I'll tell you, the carrier caps are by far the most disappointing captial ships of the lot - the Sova in particular.  I'm mean, six squads when these things are called carrier caps?  Doesn't that mean there speciality is supposed to be carrying SC, not being expensive connon fodder with a few fighters to boot? 

Really, these things should be feared bringers of death, at least to lrms and such, and specialise in supporting the fleet by carrying large numbers of SC.  Now I agree some of the abilities are dud, and need improving or replacing, however I think the main change that needs to occur is an increase the number of SC carried.  And I'm not talking about nine or ten squads at level ten.  I suggest carriers carriers start with seven SC squadrons, and by the time they reach level ten they have become able to carry twenty-one squads of SC.  Yes, twenty-one squadrons.  I say this because:

1.  Cap ships support the fleet in some way or the other, usually with abilities.  What's so wrong about the carrier caps' main ability being the ability to deploy very large numbers of SC from a - relatively - durable platform?  Currently carrier caps are virtually useless for any sort of SC use - if I want squadrons, I build light carriers.  Three light carriers later I have the six squads I wanted without the hassle of leveling up a cap - or investing in/wasting (depending on how you look at it) a cap ship crew.  Plus, if one light carrier gets destroyed I lose two squadrons, not six, and I can build another one at the snap of my fingers.  Oh yeah, plus I haven't wasted my time nurturing a cap to level ten for very little purpose - even the abilities are rubbish most of the time.*

2.  Capital carriers are pretty weak, as far as caps ships go.  The chances of successfully getting one to level ten...are minimal.  Add this to the fact that where all other cap ships can return fire effectively on their aggressors, the concept of self defense for a carrier cap involves everyone on the bridge shining lasers pointers at lizards.  Their strength truly is in their SC, so if you take those out, which is much easier than say, engaging a Kol head on and trying to destroy it, the carrier cap is in a whole lot of trouble.  Point is, a carrier cap's attack power decrease the more of its SC you destroy (its own guns are token) which is unlike any other cap (e.g. a Kol) in which it continues to do 100% of its damage against you right up until the moment its hull points hit zero.  I understand SC hang around after their transport is destroyed, slowly dieing in the process**, but the fastest solution is just to retreat one planet (preferably to one with a repair bay) and come back in a minute or two.  After all, neither the carrier cap or the air force it carried are coming back in a hurry, and I hardly think the enemy will risk pursuit when he has lost a good lump of the air force and a cap ship.  You should have decent flak/fighters to be able to clean up the dieing SC anyway.  If all you had was lrms, then that's your fault you spammer.

3.  If someone else kills your carrier cap, it hurts.  In fact, its decimating - not only did you just lose, at best, seven squads. but you also lost a cap.  If that cap was Lv10 it means not only did you air force experience a massive firepower cut, but all that time you spent has actually been wasted (unless you're Advent) and you think "Oh Sova!" or something to that effect.  Right now the response is: "Meh."  *builds 1/2/3 Percheron light carriers* unlike the other caps, where if you lose one it really is time to congratulate your opponent for smashing something you actually cared about.

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that carrier caps have the ability to carry strike craft, and that should be their main and most powerful ability.  After all, that's what a RL carrier is designed to do, bring massive amounts of cost effective power to the front in the form of SC.  Its all about making captial carriers not just equal, but highly cost effective vs. light carriers in terms of deployable SC, especially if you take care of them.  Currently, the only thing caps have going for them is the odd, situational abilty.  For everything else, there's Percherons.

Just my 2 pence.

*Excluding that Advent fighter bitch slap of doom, which is useful.  But hey, so is flak burst.

**I personally think this needs to be accelerated, a lot.  The Advent ones should die instantly I think - their pilots, after all, were in the ship you just blew to bits.

That's way too many. Carriers would dominate if not win the match before flak came out and carrier cruisers would not be worth getting at all. At best they should just become worth another carrier of that race every 3 levels(4,7,10) thus ending, for a sova, with 8 squads.

If anything, the SC themselves should get stronger along with the cap, with the SC increasing in damage/armor/hp with every level. In the end, they're still SC, and will die no matter how much armor, but cap fighters should at least be able to decimate normal SC squads.

Changing the abilities would be best though. If the Sova had a short cooldown time and lighter AM use for it's missile platforms, that alone would eliminate the need for other fighter squads, as it could put out more LRM platforms to help it attack. They definately need some squad support abilities too, since every ability primarily focuses on itself currently. (Like replace heavy SC with rapid manufacturing and make it just increase ship, structure, and SC production by 15/30/45% and no instant fighter making.)

Sova's level 6 ability should make it summon a squad of super bombers or something. It already seems built around producing units with the missile platforms and rapid manufacturing, the other carriers can make additional SC, and TEC in general are all about the bombing and explosions, so the level 6 move should spawn some giant frigate sized bomber with a tactical space nuke to be used against caps and/or structures.

O.K. I'm not gonna comment on EVERYBODY'S post (which would take hours) but, I think I've found a way for the Sova to become better, without being an early game god.

1. A max of 12 strikecraft, 2 at lvl. 1, 3 at lvl. 2, 4 at lvl. 3, 5 at lvl. 4, 6 at lvl. 5, 7 at lvl. 6, 8 at lvl. 7, 9 at lvl. 8 and 11 at lvl. 9 with 12 at lvl. 10

2. Missile Platforms being able to move, MAYBE a slight drop in AM cost...

3. Heavy Fighters ability goes from 10% at lvl. 1 to 15%, from 20% at lvl. 2 to 30% and from 30% at lvl. 3 to 45%, Heavy Fighters also repairs the strikecraft while fighting, but only ONE squadron per level (with a max of 3 at lvl. 3)

4.  Embargo preventing the escape of ALL enemy economic ships from the grav. well, and slowing down the escape of enemy warships... like a mobile Phase Jump Inhibitor, just not as potent, along with it's current abilities.

5. Rapid Manufacturing stays the same, but also decreases the AM cost and cooldown time for Embargo and Missile Barrage.

Any thoughts?

Thx- Koda0 (^)

Exactly. I really can't stand the idea of spending an enormous amount of resources and 50 command points for one ability, and even then, Embargo is worthless except on homeworlds and highly upgraded Terrans/Deserts. That's why I think the Sova should fill in the purpose of Strikecraft support- which would make TEC's weakest SC much better in combat.

The only one I'd think of actually scrapping would be Scramble Bombers, and that's just because it's so completely pointless. Adept Drone Anima could become pretty good if more SC were added per level, and Heavy SC would be fantastic as an AOE. It's just the poor Skirantra who'd be left in the dust.

Ha, I actually forgot about Disintegration. But Anima Tempest I'd think is pretty decent as an ability, but does need to be heavily reworked.

Yeah, Antorak blows Sova out of the water. I mean, Phase Out Hull is important for disrupting Missile Barrage, and it's ultimate is actually good. It's just really sad that both of these ships are otherwise near-worthless.

Ahaha!  Perhaps I got a little carried away back there - when I do things, I tend to do them in big lumps, which is clearly not the way to go with Sins.

Its good though, we seem to be reaching a bit of a consensus here on what needs changing.  Quick carrier related question though - in the manual, it says light carriers carry one squad of SC, but in game they carry two; what did I miss?

Quick carrier related question though - in the manual, it says light carriers carry one squad of SC, but in game they carry two; what did I miss?

 you missed an update, they had only one but they need two so the devs upgraded them (even if they did give Advent 3 )

came about 1.1 I think

Ah okay.  But the Advent got 3?  They already have the most SC per squadron, so isn't that overkill?

no both TEC and Vasari have their light carriers at 14 supply while Advent have it set at 20, Vasari actually wins the light carrier battle bcause they can get higher supply points and their light carriers are equal to TECs and Advent-SC wise.

Also the Advent may have more Individual SC units per squad, they are weaker in firepower and Hitpoints individually.

how many times do you see a lvl ten sova? scratch that how many times do you see a lvl ten cap at all? you dont really not when your going up against another player. Cap's get struck down fast and hard simply because they are the glue that holds the fleet together. everything begins to unravel once the Caps are out the pic.

Sova shouldnt have to lvl to get the one thing its built to carry, Strikecraft. You dont have to wait for a percheron to lvl to get its max number of squadrons. and the Sova is big enough to house 7 squadrons from the get go. so why even have to wait that long. the only thing they need to lvl up for should be their special abilities. not what their built for. Carrying strikecraft.

Input on Carrier Caps:

All Caps: I was just doing homework and had my calculator handy, and wondered what would be a good SC cap - 10 sounds like a nice, round number, but you don't get them all until level 10.  Starting out with 2 SC, that's .8 SC per level (rounded down).  So, it works out such that at level:

1. 2.8 (2) SC
2. 3.6 (3) SC
3. 4.4 (4) SC
4. 5.2 (5) SC
5. 6.0 (6) SC
6. 6.8 (6) SC
   
7. 7.6 (7) SC
8. 8.4 (8) SC
9. 9.2 (9) SC
10. 10.0 (10) SC

That makes them carry a crapload of fighters w/out becoming too powerful straight away.

Sova:

1.  Embargo - The suggestion for making Embargo act like a PJI for other ships is a nice idea - it could be explained away by saying that the Sova actually HAS a portable PJI on board the Carrier that's been tweaked to specifically target trade/refinery ships, though it still affects the bigger fish.

2.  Missile Batteries - Instead of lowering the AM cost, why not make it deploy additional Missile Batteries at each level?  1/2/3, 1/2/4, or 1/3/5 all sound like good ideas, though 1/3/5 might be a little too powerful.

3.  Heavy Strikecraft - I'm not sure what all the fuss is about this ability, but then I haven't really paid attention to all the chat over it, so a lil' summary may be needed...

4.  Rapid Manufacturing - Maybe to make this a bit more desirable, all carriers w/in a certain range, including the sova (say 5-6000 km) get the instant SC.  And why not make the 30% a full 100%?  Or 50-75% if that's a bit too extreme.

Skirantra:

1. Repair Cloud - Probably its only redeeming factor.  And it's a "fire and forget" ability, unlike the Progenitor's Shield Restore, which REQUIRES it to remain motionless.  I don't see much that needs to be improved here.

2. Scramble bombers - as most others have said, this needs to be GONE.  I never, EVER saw a need to get this.  Instead, perhaps something to the effect of Charged Missiles for SC could be implemented?  Though that would make the Junsurak a moot point...hmm...

*snaps fingers* I've got it!

Nanite Shockwave: The Skirantra releases a massive discharge of Nanites from its hull, disabling enemy abilities and also collectively linking their fates, causing them to take an equivalent amount of damage spread across the affected ships.  Costs 100 AM.

LEVEL:

1. Range - 4000 km, 15% Damage is shared
2. Range - 6000 km, 30% Damage is shared
   
3. Range - 8000 km, 50% Damage is shared

These are, of course, subject to opinion, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

3.  Microphasing Aura - Seems fine.  Leave it.

4.  Replicate Forces - Also fine.

Halcyon:

In all honesty, excluding Anima Tempest (maybe Adept Drone Anima, as well), this ship is fine.  Though, as stated, the name "Anima Tempest" would imply that the fighters usually "pew-pew"-type attacks suddenly become a STORM of laser fire that rips the enemy to shreds.  All it does is create 30 additional fighters, which, when you think about it, is somewhat like Scramble Bombers on steroids.

Instead, why not make Anima Tempest make itself and all friendly Carriers in a, oh, about 5000 km radius suddenly give their fighters a MASSIVE DPS boost - on the order of 200-300%, even, for about 60 seconds.  Certainly gives the name a whole new shine.

Anyway, my 3 and 7/8ths cents.

The problem with a direct comparison of capital carriers to carrier cruisers is that the carrier cruiser is far more limited.  It requires antimatter to build its strike craft, it doesn't have any weapons, and it also has no special abilities.  As a result, if capital ships were equal to carrier cruisers in terms of number of squads deployed, they would be superior overall by a massive margin.

I think the problem right now with their strike craft, if anything, is that they're a little weak at the low levels.  They are just fine at the higher levels.  Their problem more lies in weak skills than in being weak overall.  Many people swear by the Halcyon and Skirantra for their powerful abilities, even as we may berate the weaker ones.  If the Sova got an appropriate buff it would be fine.

As I've said before, and I'll say again, there's no systematic problem with carrier capital ships.  There is a Sova problem, that's it.  The other two have more specific problems relating to some weak abilities, but their strong abilities overshadow this.  If the Sova was well rounded, I don't think there would be a problem.

No you're not alone at all in thinking it is incredible stupid that they call it a carrier and then give it so few strike craft. 

Maybe it's a cat carrier or a dog carrier?  Can you imagine a carrier with so few craft in real life?

After reading your comments, I've come up with a revised list... please feel free to comment as you like.

1. A max of 12 strikecraft, 2 at lvl. 1, 3 at lvl. 2, 4 at lvl. 3, 5 at lvl. 4, 6 at lvl. 5, 7 at lvl. 6, 8 at lvl. 7, 9 at lvl. 8 and 11 at lvl. 9 with 12 at lvl. 10 (No Change from previous list)

2. Missile Platforms ability deploys 1 platform for every level of upgrade, with a max of 3 platforms deployed at once, MAYBE a slight drop in AM cost...

3. Heavy Fighters ability goes from 10% at lvl. 1 to 15%, from 20% at lvl. 2 to 30% and from 30% at lvl. 3 to 45%, Heavy Fighters also repairs the strikecraft while fighting, but only ONE squadron per level (with a max of 3 at lvl. 3) (No change from previous list)

4.  Embargo preventing the escape of ALL enemy economic ships from the grav. well, and slowing down the escape of enemy warships... like a mobile Phase Jump Inhibitor, just not as potent, along with it's current abilities. (No change from previous list)

5. Rapid Manufacturing stays the same, but also decreases the AM cost and cooldown time for Embargo and Missile Platforms, it also expands it's effect to include all friendly carriers within 10,000 distance from the Sova.

Koda0 (^)

That would actually work pretty well with SC per level.

According to Embargo's description, the Sova actually disables it's own Jump Drive in order to prevent trade ships from jumping as well. Also, none of the civilizations actually know how to make a Phase Jump Inhibitor, so I'd think that the Sova actually having a miniature PJI would be rather odd.

Ha, I've actually recommended making more Batteries per level. This would be a good idea, though one problem would be that having 3 Batteries could become a bit too powerful. Though this would probably the best way to go with Missile Batteries if it doesn't get an AM decrease.

With Heavy SC, all it does is give extra attack and armour to the Sova's SC. This is actually decent for a level 10 Sova, but otherwise pretty worthless. But, TEC has no actual SC boosting abilities, and this would be the perfect candidate for it. If Heavy SC was given an AOE affect to all Carriers/Capital ships (Only about 1000-2000 range), then it would turn from the typical 'worthless Carrier ability' into an absolutely great ability.

Agreed with Rapid Manufacturing. Though I'd think increasing the build rate on planets would quickly make it overpowered.

Quoting Swordsalmon, reply 41

Quoting Warlord Mike, reply 37Input on Carrier Caps:

All Caps: I was just doing homework and had my calculator handy, and wondered what would be a good SC cap - 10 sounds like a nice, round number, but you don't get them all until level 10.  Starting out with 2 SC, that's .8 SC per level (rounded down).  So, it works out such that at level:


2.8 (2) SC
3.6 (3) SC
4.4 (4) SC
5.2 (5) SC
6.0 (6) SC
6.8 (6) SC

7.6 (7) SC
8.4 (8) SC
9.2 (9) SC
10.0 (10) SC
That makes them carry a crapload of fighters w/out becoming too powerful straight away.

Sova:

1.  Embargo - The suggestion for making Embargo act like a PJI for other ships is a nice idea - it could be explained away by saying that the Sova actually HAS a portable PJI on board the Carrier that's been tweaked to specifically target trade/refinery ships, though it still affects the bigger fish.

2.  Missile Batteries - Instead of lowering the AM cost, why not make it deploy additional Missile Batteries at each level?  1/2/3, 1/2/4, or 1/3/5 all sound like good ideas, though 1/3/5 might be a little too powerful.

3.  Heavy Strikecraft - I'm not sure what all the fuss is about this ability, but then I haven't really paid attention to all the chat over it, so a lil' summary may be needed... ;

4.  Rapid Manufacturing - Maybe to make this a bit more desirable, all carriers w/in a certain range, including the sova (say 5-6000 km) get the instant SC.  And why not make the 30% a full 100%?  Or 50-75% if that's a bit too extreme.


That would actually work pretty well with SC per level.

According to Embargo's description, the Sova actually disables it's own Jump Drive in order to prevent trade ships from jumping as well. Also, none of the civilizations actually know how to make a Phase Jump Inhibitor, so I'd think that the Sova actually having a miniature PJI would be rather odd.

Ha, I've actually recommended making more Batteries per level. This would be a good idea, though one problem would be that having 3 Batteries could become a bit too powerful. Though this would probably the best way to go with Missile Batteries if it doesn't get an AM decrease.

With Heavy SC, all it does is give extra attack and armour to the Sova's SC. This is actually decent for a level 10 Sova, but otherwise pretty worthless. But, TEC has no actual SC boosting abilities, and this would be the perfect candidate for it. If Heavy SC was given an AOE affect to all Carriers/Capital ships (Only about 1000-2000 range), then it would turn from the typical 'worthless Carrier ability' into an absolutely great ability.

Agreed with Rapid Manufacturing. Though I'd think increasing the build rate on planets would quickly make it overpowered.

End of Swordsalmon's quote

Why thank you, sir!

Thanks for the info on Heavy SC, by the way.  That being said, maybe a slightly larger radius would be better, say 3-4000, but just me thinking out loud, here.

On that note, what'd you think of my suggestions for the Skirantra and Halcyon?