Newb Strategy Guide 101

from Sins Forums

Can an Amishman get a decent teammate?

Over the past 3 days I have been losing. Constantly. Not me losing mind you. I've been playing games where I either had a 2v1 from the start and recieved no help or won a 1v1, but no one else on my team won their personal battle.

Here's what I've seen. In 2v1, I'll hold my ground, but in 2v1, against two competent players, I don't care who it is. With no help, that 1 person will slowly fall back. 2 econs are always better than 1. I don't want to take away from the guys I played. They played well, and I commend them. But....In the meantime, I look to my ally.....who's doing several things....all of which don't include sending any aid my way to even the playing field.

In 1v1, I'll rock someone's world....only to find all 3 or 4 of my allies falling back to their homeworld or actually on the run and are pretty much dead.

I try to stay nice and polite online, but I'm about at my limit for tolerating newb play. I don't mind losing, but losing because of misunderstanding of team/good play makes my blood boil....SO, here goes.

To any new player reading this....here are some general rules for team play in online matches.

Rule #1: Expand as much as is reasonably possible within your skill range and your style of play

In the first 15-30 minutes (before combat is starting), the idea is to expand and get planets. You need them for econ, logistic slots, and launching points for your frig factories. Does this mean spend the entire game just sending your colony cap from planet to planet colonizing? Not necessarily. What this means is don't be that guy who gets his asteroid, a terran, and then decided to buy a starbase for each planet with some turret, some hangar bays, some repair bays. JUST DON'T.

Entrenching is a good strat that has its uses at times. Very early game before any battle has been decided in online play is NOT that time. This leads me to rule #2

Rule #2: Unless you are facing a 2v1 or 3v1 situation very early, do not entrench from the start

I've seen this one a couple times now. Your goal in online play should never be to just dig in once you have 3 planets. EVER. Guys will expand a little, and then go straight to buying stationary defences. If you've got two guys barreling down on you in a situation that you couldn't hold your ground without defences, then sure, do this. I understand.

Don't expand, see that your opponent is coming your way, panic, and then construct every defence possible. When you do this, you essentially turn a 5v5 or a 4v4 into a 4v5 or 3v4 respectively. When you have absolutely no fleet (cause you won't if you're spending ur $ on defences and have only a couple planets), you aren't helping your allies AT ALL. You can't mobilize, and the opponent can just send his ships elsewhere to colonize and put up some defences of his own to fight back any ships that you may actually send.

If you entrench form the start. You take yourself out of the game. You give an ally a 2v1. It's ok to use starbases and defences. Just don't spend everything (above 50%) of what you got on them.

Rule #3: If you're losing, or feel you're going to start losing, SAY SOMETHING

There have been too many times I hear "One of our allies capital ships has been lost", or "One of our allies has lost a planet", only to see that my ally is definitely on the losing side of a battle. There's no shame in being this person. Everyone out there, including myself, has been bested by opponents. Your teammates can't help you though, if you're only words to be said are "Uh guys, I'm gonna need feed" AFTER you've lost ur fleet, 1-2 planets, and are on the run.

You need to communicate as early as possible if you're going to be in trouble or might lose. This DOES NOT mean be the guy who says "Uh oh, I have 20 Illums, he has 21, feed me!" (Little over the top, but you get what I mean). Don't be the guy who begs for feed early on when no battle has even happened yet. If you have a feeder, it makes more sense to let him develop his econ as much as possible so he can feed you more later rather than earlier. A feeders econ grows on what's almost an exponential curve. Every time you make him feed you early takes away from what he can give you later.

Is there a balance of early and late game feed? Of course. I don't think there's anything wrong with early game feed. Just don't be the guy who asks for it way before he needs it, and don't be the guy who asks for it way after it could really do you any good. This isn't all encompassing, and I get that feed early on can spur an ally to early victory, but still, the point in general stands. This leads me to point 4.

Rule #4: If you are in a spot on the map where you have either an ally on each side, you are the econ player. Get tradeports, not fleet

When you're in this spot, you need to gobble up as many planets as possible, get as many tradeports as possible, and never tech past the first tier of fleet taxation if possible. Too many times I see allies who get a fleet and are in the econ spot. You're not near an enemy, and you only need so many ships for pirates, so NO FLEETING IN THIS SPOT.

Rule #5: Sending your ally $$$$ is going to be more effective than sending your own fleet to help

This falls under rule #4, but it's a point that needs to be made on it's own. Traveling in this game takes TIME. A lot of it. If you have an ally who's fighting a 2v1, who's doing alright for the situation, it's just that he's got a 2v1 and has to slowly fall back, $$$, not your own fleet, is what will help him much more in short run. Yes, you should send what fleet you do have to support, but not every sitation calls for you making more of your own fleet to send to help your ally.

If you have an ally in trouble, ask him what he wants. If he thinks you bringing your own fleet will help him, then do it (although if ur more than 4 jumps away you should then be asking for a plent to launch from). Sending your own fleet to help an ally takes time. Time for construction. Time to get there. Time is something an ally who needs support DOESN'T HAVE. Cash can be given instantly, so do it. If you're ally is competent, he can put it to good use. Also, you can advise him since you're not fighting, but he is.

When you're not on the front lines fighting someone, it's very rare that you ever need to fleet up early and not a good sign for your team if you have to fleet up to save an ally. Losing an econ player hurts when he has to fleet up. Try to avoid that by feeding effectively to save your allies.

Rule #6: No light frigate swarms

Oh for the love of god let it stop. No more cobalt spamming! It may work on the ai. Won't work on a human. In online play, there are effective ways to use scouts, long range frigs, flak, carriers, support cruisers, and heavy cruisers. Never light frigs.

The online community probably about 90% of the time uses long range frigates as their first fleet. It's a pretty good rule of thumb. Don't be the guy who makes cobalts. I'm beggin you. They're good for early expansion help (10 of them max), and for flak/support/carrier cruiser elimination. That's it.

If you're new and don't know what to do for early game fleet, my best advice is long range frigates as a starting point. You can learn as you go, but if you have those (and in decent numbers mind you), you'll learn much much quicker.

 Rule #7: Scout

Ok, a lot of people who see this are going to think "Oh god, it's rage and his scouts again". Believe it or not, I'm suggesting as a noob that you use scouts to....drum roll plz....SCOUT. I've seen one too many times that an ally loses a good portion of his fleet to a well placed starbase with Phase Jump Inhibitors. Send 1 ship before you go on a massive offensive to check if you're walking into a trap. Going on the offensive is tricky business. Intel is worth almost as much as the fleet you've got. This leads to another point of mine.

Rule #8: Outmuscle you're opponent if on the offensive

This is just a rule of war. Playing defensively will always and has always been easier. This game is no exception. If you're going on the offensive, if ur fleets are evenly matched, your defensive opponent will most likely win. He has access to defense structures. You don't. Those tip the scales and pretty much make it that if you're going to be on the offensive, you must, MUST have:

1. A bigger/stronger fleet. I'm not going to say be twice the size. That's a little out of line. But ballpark 1.2-1.5x his size is what you need.

2. Constant Supply Line of reinforcements. You will falter and fail because he can reinforce right there at the battle. YOU on the other hand have to jump it in.

 

That's all I got. I'll think of more later. Peace.

strategy
9,026 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

just wondering, if you are so big into scout rushing, would light frigate rushing be a good counter to that?

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Yes, actually. It is.

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Why else do you think it is that he doesn't like Light Frigate rushing?  :grin:

 

As a side note, this is one of the most constructively bitter posts I've seen.  Sorry to hear that your games haven't been going well.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

If you entrench form the start. You take yourself out of the game. You give an ally a 2v1. It's ok to use starbases and defences. Just don't spend everything (above 50%) of what you got on them.
End of quote

Ugh, I've run into people like that.  People who say "feed for heavy cruisers" then you look over and they spent it on a starbase, and never bothered to expand to nearby planets.

 

Starbases are speedbumps, not bulwarks.  They will delay an enemy, not stop him outright (AI idiocy notwithstanding).  I've seen people (just last night) turtle voraciously and build dozens of starbases.  If the enemy warps into your gravity well with superior forces, those starbases are going to do nothing but delay.  You need some long-term plan to make use of that time you're buying, otherwise it's just delaying the inevitable.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

No tips for the (admittingly rare) occasion when the noob finds him/herself in the ideal position for an offensive?

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

LF's can be spammed from the start.  The reason they fail against any human that has half of a head on their shoulders.  LRF's don't just kill or destroy LF's; LRF's massacre cobalts and the like.  LRF's can be spammed very early and chances are, by the time your opponent has any sort of fleet of LF's on your planets, you already have LRF's researched and they do not take long at all to kill.  Just a repair platform and LRF's can kill 2-4 times more LF's than there are of themselves...  Besides, by the time you realize that your LF's are getting slaughtered, your first 4000 credits has already been wasted while you simply encouraged your enemy to become more of a threat to you.

 

As for sending fleet vs cash, It certainly does depend.  If your ally is a jump or two away, obviously you want to help unless you are already fighting an enemy...  It also depends on research levels.  If your research levels are much higher than his, you will do a better job of fighting than he will.  A little research goes a long way in this game, and the existence of HC's in a battle between two people who don't will yield a very dramatic result.  Now, I'm not saying that you should drop everything and join the battle because your damage is 5% higher than his..  I'm saying if his research is higher than yours, give him cash.  He'll use it more efficiently than you would on your own fleet.

Having to do with transit time, playing as Vasari can help with this.  Sending your ally one of the Vasari caps can certainly help, but the phase gates really do make a difference.  This doesn't always apply, but if you have a planet that is just 1-2 jumps away from the battlefield with a phase stabilizer, I'd say move your fleet to another gate and jump.  Stabilizers work best at defending yourself, but can be used to aid an ally...
(Related questions: 1. Does Repair Cloud heal allies? 2. Can allies use each other's phase gates?)

 

As far as feeding goes, I like what you put here...  People will obviously be best at one form or another.  I micro... a lot...  Others are good at rushing, feeding, mid-late game combat, macroing, etc.  The point is, each person has their specialty, but when given the place to develop your econ, don't be an idiot and waste it.  If you have the spot where you can just sit back and relax while your allies do the fighting, go ahead (so long as you are feeding them).  Feeding a good tactical player gives him the boost he needs to create more ships.  Massive Microer's tend to suffer from a lack of the big picture and taking care of the econ.  Microing properly makes you able to take on far more enemies than normal, but adding in more ships makes someone like this much better.

Basics: In a 5v5 game, you have the perfect spot to feed.  Your have to max out your econ as your position makes it a 5v4 for your allies.  By feeding decently, you can balance this back out and if done properly, you can tip the scales in your favor.

 

 

And for the record, this is probably the most constructive rant I have ever seen...

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Added Two more rules, for the newb on the offensive.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

I full heartedly agree amish.. i took a two week break from the game.. came back and there are so many noobs and smurfs now.. I lost all my games yesterday becaue of noobs.. please noobs, listen to master amish

 

-MS

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

I have the same problem Raging.Most of my losses are due to my teamates.I hardly ever lose my 1v1.I just played a game where both my allies lost and I was on the defense against 40+ ilums and guards.When he showed up I had only a handful of flak.He had 3 hosts I think and I had 20+ flak and6-8 carriers.I had a fleet of 20 scouts at the begining but they didnt last long.Anyway he almost killed my marza 2 or 3x.Anyway got my marza to 6 and defeated the army.The mb didnt completely kill his ilums but came real close so I had to finish them off.This is another example of why tec needs mb over the other races.There would have been no way to defeat this without having a much bigger fleet in counters.This is why I am against any nerfing of mb and always have been.It gives tec the CHANCE to even things out.If you dont move out of the way or cancel it then its ur own fault.

Funny thing was earlier on I took my 20 scouts to his hw and sniped all 3 hos temples.Was great.Btw he got fed over 14k creds and 5k+ in resources so I didnt do to bad I guess.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Good guide - let me add one in

IF THE GAME TITLE SAYS SKILLED AND YOU HAVE JUST STARTED PLAYING MULTI-PLAYED (MP) - STAY OUT OF IT!!!

I played with a newb the other day (won't say who but if he reads this, HE will know) - he built a SB on his HW, didn't expand and wondered why an egg and some assialants made it go pop (it wasn't upgraded...)

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

I really hope everyone pays special attention to the fact that LF spam is useless. A short while ago, I was in a 2v2 match. My ally ended up getting almost nothing but Disciples, and ending up just surrendering after his first battle. Also, an enemy made a fleet of 30 Cobolts and an Akkan, which were promptly slaughtered by my ten Illuminators attacking the Akkan. >__<

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

No tips for the (admittingly rare) occasion when the noob finds him/herself in the ideal position for an offensive?
End of quote

Don't send 100 ships when 50 will do.

 

Dr.Gonzo

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

another one is ask questions. If you dont know what counters what ask it will allow you to get the counter before your enemy is already destroying you.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Rule #3: If you're losing, or feel you're going to start losing, SAY SOMETHING
End of quote

If you dont know what counters what ask it will allow you to get the counter before your enemy is already destroying you.
End of quote

As a new sins player I can say this is one of the most fundamental aspects of playing and leaning to play sins online. I'd like to say a massive thanks to all of the players who have helped and taught whilst playing.

1. At the start, ask players for their advice and LISTEN.

2. Share information as you find it out, enemy and friendly.

3. Watch replays, especially starting techniques.

4. Balanced fleet > spam.

5. If you are losing then talk to your allies as you can help win simply by holding them off for a lengthy period of time. Ask for cash and advice as its happening.

6. Suggest that more people play sins so the devs have more cash so we get more upgrades to a great but buggy game.

 

 

 

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

1. Glad there are still noobs.

2. Amish you are f-in hilarious. Also a kind soul cause you do play with just about anyone.

3.There is good info here if you can get past the noob this and noob that.

4. I.C. screwed the poouch with a ranking system. They shoulda come up with something for ICO. In most of my other games your an ensign or recruit or private. Or any number of ensignia base ranking. Maybe in the future.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

As a certified noob, I'd like to say thanks to Amish for these tips. The world is Sins (especially multi-player) is one that is particularly hard to get into, even for an RTS. It's not just the complete lack of information when you fire up the game (the tutorials are very basic, but I think that lack of a campaign to let you in gently hurts new Sins players), but also the fear of complete failure at the hands of more experienced player that isolates players.

I must admit from my limited experience I am yet to enjoy myself online, partly because of the above (and I have watched replays, and tried to soak as much as I can from the forums) but also becuase of hostility from very few members of the online experience. But a bad apple ruins the whole basket etc etc. I'm willing to keep going though, since there seem to be some great guys, and Sins is essentially a fantastic game (and one that recieves constant attention from its Devs, only pushing it to get better).

-Sobric

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Are there any good places to get entrenchment replays? All the replays on the main site seem to be either vs AI or non-entrenchment.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Bleh. I'll just stick to playing AI. I'm too afraid to try out multiplayer.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Sobric, reply 16
As a certified noob, I'd like to say thanks to Amish for these tips. The world is Sins (especially multi-player) is one that is particularly hard to get into, even for an RTS. It's not just the complete lack of information when you fire up the game (the tutorials are very basic, but I think that lack of a campaign to let you in gently hurts new Sins players), but also the fear of complete failure at the hands of more experienced player that isolates players.

I must admit from my limited experience I am yet to enjoy myself online, partly because of the above (and I have watched replays, and tried to soak as much as I can from the forums) but also becuase of hostility from very few members of the online experience. But a bad apple ruins the whole basket etc etc. I'm willing to keep going though, since there seem to be some great guys, and Sins is essentially a fantastic game (and one that recieves constant attention from its Devs, only pushing it to get better).

-Sobric
End of Sobric's quote

 

It's worth trying out, trust me. I'm pretty touchy regarding manners and trashtalk, so I wouldn't still be playing it online if there were that many jerks running loose. About 40% of the community are mature and more or less intelligent people, 50% are a grey mass you just won't notice because they don't talk a lot and maybe every 10th player is a jerk. While that makes it pretty likely to encounter them, you get used to that. Plus, since few people bother replying to the trashtalk or they just get mad being fun of it's bearable.

 

Hope to see you online ^_^

Azrak

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

You know, I get after people when they do something royally stupid like warping a capital ship with 500 hull points into battle, but I'm not going to trash talk them for being new.  There are some bad apples out there, but don't let them taint the game for you.

For a game this old, I'm always surprised by how many new or inexperienced players I'll encounter.  People your speed are out there, you just have to find them.  Aside from that, don't be afraid to ask for tips.